Skip to content

That Damnable Ice

June 13, 2017

Arctic stops play!

  1. John F. Hultquist permalink
    June 13, 2017 8:25 pm

    It rained all night
    The day I left
    The weather it was dry
    The sun so hot,
    I froze to death
    Susanna, don’t you cry

    [ Stephen Foster; Oh ! Susanna Lyrics ]

    • June 16, 2017 11:07 am

      “Cause I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee”

      In my case, from West Virginia with an oboe in my hand.

  2. nigel permalink
    June 13, 2017 8:35 pm

    I was just idly watching a slightly creepy 1970s movie about a man and a woman who fall into the clutches of a group of children, who are cunning and malicious and moronic at the same time. At one point the woman writes HELP into the top of a pie.


  3. dave permalink
    June 13, 2017 8:38 pm

    So…when ice disappears in the Arctic it shows it by becoming really, really thick. I am baffled.

    And actually, Hudson’s Bay is not in the Arctic.

  4. bea permalink
    June 13, 2017 8:40 pm

    The CAGW Rapture is on the way; or the Anti-Rapture, or the End of Days, or at least something the Mayans predicted; or…

  5. dave permalink
    June 13, 2017 8:48 pm

    In Africa, in the good old days, when the weather was a bit funny, the King used to call in the Witch-Doctors who would point at some unfortunates who were then tortured to death. If that did not work, the Witch Doctors would be tortured to death. If that did not wotk the King would be tortured to death. You get the idea. The possibility, that it had nothing at all to do with the little animals called humans, was NEVER canvassed..

  6. Curious George permalink
    June 13, 2017 9:00 pm

    “It was clear it was from the Arctic, I just needed to be among the ice to see it,” said Dr. Barber. “What was also clear to me was that climate change has caused this event to happen.”

    Unfortunately it was clear to Dr. Barber only after the fact. Not before. He has a 20/20 hindsight.

    I concur that it was not an Antarctic ice.

    • Athelstan permalink
      June 13, 2017 9:26 pm

      sheee-it, before you could say disappearing ice sheets man! …………… penguins then?

      “global warming ice!”…………..was it the wrong sort of ice, compared to say…………the winter ice?…………., damn I just need to see the ‘warming’ ice and separate it from the cold stuff, then I can tell, clearly………………….

      silly me, silly bu88er barber – a doctor, are they giving certificates away?

      Picture, a dreaming perspire, a University rector: “tell ’em about globull warming an’ stick our name on it and we’ll award you a doctorate for just rolling up to college, here you go………sonny!” Think of the freebies too, Arctic travel all you want, provided it ain’t snowing.

  7. Mitchell Taylor permalink
    June 13, 2017 10:30 pm

    Foxe Basin, Hudson Bay, and Hudson Strait are ice-free in early fall, so the heavy multi-year ice must have been transported from a more northern (i.e., arctic) region where some ice persists throughout the summer/fall season and goes through multiple freezing cycles. An unusually warm year might cause a shed of multi-year ice to be transported as pack ice by winds and currents through open water into southern areas that are usually just annual ice. Last summer and fall were unusually warm due to El Nino conditions and … climate warming.

    Sorry to be a buzz-killer, but Dave is right this time anyway.

    • Curious George permalink
      June 14, 2017 12:48 am

      “An unusually warm year might cause a shed of multi-year ice to be transported as pack ice.” That could never happen in an unusually cold year – or could it?

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 7:08 am

        According to NASA Earth Observatory:

        “In Spetember 2016, there were only 110,000 square kilometers of older sea ice left.”

        So where is the source of multi-year ice?

      • nigel permalink
        June 14, 2017 8:45 am

        Yes, the loss of multi-year ice is a done deal (i.e. an old story).

        In the period 1981-2010, the volume of northern sea-ice used to go between 26,000 and 7,000 cubic kilometers; now, in the “new normal,” it cycles between 23,000 and 5,000.

        I doubt if this modest reduction has anything to do with multi-year ice since it is mainly in parts of the periphery where multi-year ice never developed anyway.

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 9:22 am

        In terms of extent at present, the edge compared to the median edge 1980-2010:

        One can see at the extreme left and right of the iced area a bit of “nibbling away.” But no other, general features, really

      • AndyG55 permalink
        June 14, 2017 9:48 am

        nigel, in case you were ignorant of the FACTS, the late 1970’s was actually a time of EXTREME sea ice extent

        Up there with the EXTREMES of the Little Ice Age.

        Clearly shown by the Icelandic Sea Ice index

        The real FACT is that the current level of Arctic sea ice is greater than it has been for some 90-95% of the Holocene.

        The ONLY time it has been higher was during the spiteful COLD of the LIA, the COLDEST period in 10,000 years.

      • AndyG55 permalink
        June 14, 2017 9:53 am

        Also, the Russia sea ice charts show that 2017 has highest “old ice” this century.

        MASIE also shows a slight upward trend in sea ice during the last 10 years.

      • Old Englander permalink
        June 14, 2017 2:39 pm

        Nice point from AndyG – I thought I was the only one to trawl the net and find the “Koch Index” graphic posted. Based on a re-work of data in Lauge Koch’s “The East Greenland Ice” (1945), itself derived from historical documents back to AD 800 (beginning of the Norse settlements in Iceland), the Wallewik and Sigurjonsson (1998) series updates Koch beyond 1945. The “Koch Index” is different from the “weeks per year of sea ice” used by Koch himself, but overlays beautifully with the original (which covers the MWP from AD 800 to 1200 also). In 1780-1800 the sea ice occurrence exceed 26 weeks per year i.e. 6 months of the stuff. As Andy says, the 1970’s spikes are up there with the LIA.

    • bea permalink
      June 14, 2017 4:52 pm

      “…a shed of multi-year ice…”

      What an interesting construction material. I make mine out of wood.

      The Allies in WWII tried to make an aircraft carrier out of ice and straw. When Lord Mountbatten demonstrated a lump of the material to Admiral King of the US Navy by shooting at it, the bullet ricocheted and went through Admiral King’s trouser leg.

      A staff officer outside the room merely said to his colleagues, both British and American,
      “I knew they would end up killing each other!”

  8. John F. Hultquist permalink
    June 14, 2017 12:05 am

    Thanks for the “might cause” remark, Mitchell,
    I have seen time lapse video of ice streaming off the Arctic Ocean. Currents in the area are not at all favorable for it to get into Hudson Bay. If ice did go that way, melting will be the most likely outcome in an “unusually warm year“, not thick ridges.
    Arctic Ocean ice does go into the North Atlantic waters. Remember the RMS Titanic?
    Without some proof of your hypothesis, I assume the dear professor is just making things up.

    • dave permalink
      June 14, 2017 7:31 am

      “…making things up…”

      Or “stamp collecting.”

    • Mitchell Taylor permalink
      June 14, 2017 2:31 pm

      Multi-year ice is quite distinctive even from the air or from a ship because it is thicker than annual ice, and weathered on top and along the sides. There is current flow and prevailing winds through the Arctic Archipelago that could push multi-year sea ice from Viscount Melville Sound, Lancaster Sound and Gulf of Boothia through the Fury and Hecla Strait, down Foxe Basin and into Hudson Bay. Most of Canada’s archipelago and all of the above named multi-year sea ice source areas are above the Arctic Circle. Hudson Bay and Hudson Strait are subarctic.

      With respect to proof, the Gulf of Boothia and the western entrance to Fury and Hecla Strait (limit of our survey) had a great deal of multi-year ice this year. I can’t comment on whether this was an especially heavy year for multi-year ice in Gulf of Boothia because our observations were limited to the last 3 years. I have no way of knowing if the multi-year ice we saw was related to what Dr. Barber saw or not. But I think it is well known that all multi-year sea ice does not reside in the Arctic Basin or exit into the North Atlantic. I had the impression there was more multi-year ice this year in the southern portion of Gulf of Boothia than in the previous 2 years.

      The polar bears we saw in the Gulf of Boothia were in good condition, however polar bears are not nomadic as was once believed. Genetics, mark-recapture data, and telemetry all support the fidelity of polar bears to relatively distinct subpopulations. It might be of interest to mention that all 5 polar bear subpopulations in areas with open water during the late summer and early fall (seasonal ice areas) are identified as currently stable or increasing from recent surveys.

      • bea permalink
        June 14, 2017 4:01 pm

        Actually, the “Amundsen” – according to the underlying source – was sent to the coast of Newfoundland, so absolutely zero to do with Hudson’s Bay or the Gulf of Boothia. Barber was apparently excited to hitch a lift there (the Atlantic) and see some big floes. The big floes might be detached ‘fast ice,’ of course.

        The NASA statement that a trivial amount (110,000 sq km) of ‘older sea-ice’ survived in September 2016 stands uncontradicted. Of course, by ‘older ice’ they might mean 4-year old ice while others would include 2-year old ice…

        Still, there is little sea-ice at all outside the Arctic Circle at the end of the melt, except for a little bit off Western Greenland. And so the source for true multi-year ice coming down past Newfoundland is constrained – according to NASA – to be almost insignificant, in global terms.

        The whole thing is a bit of a muddle because the Amundsen did go to Hudson’s Bay to deal with unusual ice – in July 2015.

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 4:15 pm

        The present map of the ice, again, shows a teeny-weeny bit on the north coast of Newfoundland. Why anybody should bother sending an ice-breaker there escapes me. Unless…the CREW were trying to escape – from Barber and his group.

      • bea permalink
        June 14, 2017 4:35 pm

        West Coast of Greenland having a bit of sea-ice in late summer outside the Arctic Circle. I meant East Coast.

  9. tom0mason permalink
    June 14, 2017 1:11 am

    Schrodinger’s Cat found alive and may (or may not) be seen wondering around the Arctic.
    In a study, entitled BaySLys, a $17-million four-year-long program headed by the University of Manitoba Heisenberg Department said in a rare press release —

    The cat is probably(with high confidence) out of the bag now. This was predicted by our models using regression analysis of indeterminate forms applied to this massive pile of ‘cat’s singularity’.

    • dave permalink
      June 14, 2017 9:46 am

      Were there any polar bears on the supposed old ice coming down?

      A bit of old ice did come into Parry Sound from the Archipelago, last September. So the ice-breakers had a bit of extra work to do there, this spring. All very local stuff though.

  10. Green Sand permalink
    June 14, 2017 6:35 am

    What, again?

    ‘Worst Ice Conditions In Hudson Bay For 20 Years – July 22, 2015’

    • dave permalink
      June 14, 2017 10:17 am

      The whole thing was a bit garbled and not much to do with Hudson’s Bay. A silly excuse by a scientist for why he did not do any work this year. Sort of, “I was left off the list of important things to do But everything’s still MELTING.” In June? How amazing.

  11. June 14, 2017 11:36 am

    O/T but I wonder if there’s a climate change hysteria angle on the fire at Grenfell tower. The tower recently had insulating cladding fixed to the exterior which can clearly be seen burnt to a crisp cake in close-up pics of the building (underneath the Al cladding sheets). A possible explanation for how the fire spread so quickly?? The installer have taken down their page describing the project – although various other newsletters and reports can be found online singing the benefits of the CO2 savings from the cladding. Were fire safety concerns put to one side for the greater goal of ‘saving the planet’ from a harmless plant fertilising trace gas?

    • June 14, 2017 11:45 am

      Good paper here on how fire safety standards are being compromised to satisfy energy saving targets of climate-change obsessed regulatory bodies:

      Click to access Valiulis.pdf

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 11:58 am

        They clad it in ZINC. You use zinc in batteries, because it is oxidised easily – i.e. IT BURNS.

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 1:42 pm

        Like most people I had never heard of Grenfell Tower, and its controversial refurbishment by quango and local government working togther.

        However my son is a structural engineer who builds skyscrapers for a living, and he said that although he might agree to hot steel dipped in zinc for exterior members, he would not even consider an insulating, cladding material including zinc. Of course, a new building is not a retrofit. But again, should older buildings be forced into retrofits to “go greener”?

  12. dave permalink
    June 14, 2017 11:39 am

    “The whole thing…”

    I mean the present little bit of inconsequential fluff; not the report of 2015 of when the ice did, indeed, hang on a bit longer than usual in part of the Bay.

    I think Nigel’s point was that, since the multi-year ice IS no-more, people can not pretend that loss of this “strategic reserve,” is waiting, like the sword of Damocles, to cause that “death spiral” we were gleefully promised.

    Anyway, the sun is shining in Sussex, and they have dug up the road outside for the sixth time in four weeks. Apparently, the last time they filled it in they used the wrong tar.

    • dave permalink
      June 14, 2017 12:09 pm

      Things should be left unrefurbished, as in the Barbican – pure concrete and now’t else. I walked into a wall there once. Scarred my nose for life. Excellent construction!

      • dave permalink
        June 14, 2017 12:14 pm

        I blame global warming for my nose. No, really.

        It was an unseasonably [sic] warm spring day forty years ago, and I was walking along half-asleep in the sun, when Bam! There the Barbican was.

  13. StewGreen permalink
    June 14, 2017 3:35 pm

    Pg 56 Times :Tees CCPP planning permission
    By Sembcorp
    I’ve worked for them , underneath they were really Singapore Government and probably still are.

    • dave permalink
      June 14, 2017 4:18 pm

      StewGreen, Is that something to do with the Grenfell Tower?

  14. Len Vaness permalink
    June 15, 2017 3:52 am

    Hudson Bay has lower salinity than the Arctic Ocean…thus it makes sense that it would have more winter ice

  15. Martyn Farmer permalink
    June 15, 2017 1:19 pm


    Have you read the article in the latest edition of the Spectator by Dr Phillip Williamson of the University of East Anglia?

    Title – The Great Myth of the Global Warming ‘Pause’.

    Comment required!


    Martyn Farmer

    Martyn Farmer
    015395 36043
    07769 728 031 (M)
    07778 520 820 (K)
    Wall Nook Health Bonus Ltd
    LA11 7SP

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: