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EV Sales Continue To Disappoint

January 10, 2019

By Paul Homewood

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https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

The SMMT has now published annual data for new car registrations in the UK.

The figures continue the declining trend begun in 2017, though registrations are still higher than in 2013.

Registrations of of diesels have plummeted by 29.6%, but are up for both petrol and AFVs. There is little difference in trends between private and fleet.

Mixed signals from government about future policy towards diesel have definitely had a major impact on sales, and are causing real damage to the industry.

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However, there is no sign of EVs picking up the slack. Plug in sales (incl plug in hybrids) continue to be largely irrelevant within the overall scene, making up just 2.6% of overall sales. Excluding plug in hybrids, the figure is even worse, at 0.7%.

Government policy is focussed on Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs), to achieve its objective of zero emissions, a strategy also endorsed by the BEIS Select Committee. Non plug in hybrids, and indeed most plug in hybrids, while having the potential to cut fuel usage, will not meet that objective.

 

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It is hard to see sales of BEVs increasing much in the next few years, given that they have only gone up by 1877 in the past year. At that rate we will still only be up to 36000 by 2030, just double the current pitiful level.

More importantly, it is hard to see what will change in the next decade to influence drivers’ attitudes when buying. The intractable problems of lack of a proper charging infrastructure, range and lack of off street parking are still likely to be around in ten years time.

Even with generous taxpayer funded subsidies for the purchase and running of EVs, it is apparent that only a few nerds actually want to buy them.

I see nothing coming along in the foreseeable future that will fundamentally alter drivers’ buying habits, short of some form of government compulsion.

53 Comments
  1. TheMan at the Back permalink
    January 10, 2019 10:52 pm

    Well the first friend of mine that moved from diesel to petrol a year or so ago has expressed regret already. His fuel costs have increased sharply.

    The older diesel cars were very dirty and we have all seen examples of buses, lorries and cars belching out black particulate matter – definitely unacceptable. A modern Euro6 diesel with particulate filter and AdBlue system to reduce NoX is not that polluting.

    I bought a new diesel just over a year ago at a massive discount. It has no diesel badging, is fully Euro6, and sounds very quiet inside, and out. Most people have to ask me whether it is petrol or diesel.

    Definitely a win as far as I am concerned.

  2. January 10, 2019 10:57 pm

    If we get a couple of cold winters during this solar minimum I suspect EV sales could actually fall. When I researched buying a Leaf a few years back I discovered that the quoted range would be cut in half if I used the heater, wipers and headlights – all basic essentials for winter driving in the UK but especially if the weather is cold for sustained periods.

    Nissan was recommending that the car is pre-heated before setting off. Not sure how long they think the car would stay warm on my 120 mile (once a month) commute to head office. I suspect in sub zero temps the interior would be uncomfortably cool by the time I’d got 20 miles down the road let alone the whole 120 miles. However if I used the heater to stay warm then I’d need to stop off half way for an hour or two to charge up – and they wonder why I chose to buy an I/C instead….. all that lovely ‘waste’ heat from the engine is certainly not wasted in winter driving in the UK!

    • Dave Ward permalink
      January 11, 2019 10:11 am

      “Nissan was recommending that the car is pre-heated before setting off”

      So it’s O.K. to preheat your “Eco Friendly” EV, but not if you have a horrible fossil fuelled car?

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6576711/Drivers-leave-car-running-ice-windscreen-face-40-fine.html

      • Gerry, England permalink
        January 11, 2019 1:57 pm

        Within the article they mention the key word ‘unnecessary’. Since being able to see where you are going is considered ‘very necessary’ I think they are on hiding to nothing with that one.

    • January 12, 2019 8:39 am

      Gerry, England

      Your point is one that I have been raising for years. Where I live, it snows, has cold rain that steams up windows, gets foggy, dark at night, very hot in the summer and has lots of hills.

      One hill is called seventeen mile hill because it is exactly that. The regenerative power captured from braking on the down slope is a fraction of the energy expended going up the hills. The power drain going up the hill increases dramatically when maintaining speed on a steep grade.

      The regenerative capture alleviating the output which helps maintain range rationale assumes the down slope is utilized right after the uphill portion which obviously is not always the case.

      I have never understood why they went after Volkswagen for fudging fuel economy figures when e.v. marketers do ti all the time and have done so ever since they started producing them. Their entire e.v. market fuel economy figures are based of false assumptions about how the vehicle will be used.

  3. Ken Burnley permalink
    January 10, 2019 11:27 pm

    And the crazy EU ‘Daytime running lights’ law which enforces the use of headlamps throughout the day won’t help either!

    • January 11, 2019 8:26 am

      Ken, daytime running lights is the least of my problems. Our new’ish Nissan Navara, like many new cars, is fitted with auto headlights. On paper these sound OK. In practise they are verging on being downright dangerous let alone a waste of energy.

      This is the first vehicle I’ve owned with them fitted so it may just be a Nissan/Renault issue – there is no option to completely turn off the headlights. You can either have them on auto setting or permanently on.

      Auto setting uses a sensor that seems to operate on some perverse logic, if it is a bright sunny day with clear blue sky the system turns on the headlights! This means on my 250 mile round trip to head office on a nice bright sunny day I end up with the headlights on for most of the journey. The headlights are halogen bulbs so not only is this wasting fuel it also burns out the bulbs far earlier than necessary. Conversely, on dull murky days the system will often NOT turn on the headlights even though I feel the conditions need them so I have to turn them on manually! We’ve actually had the system fail to turn the headlights on when it was raining or snowing too. I would much rather just turn them on myself when I need them, I’m far more reliable than the Nissan/Renault system 🙂

      The reason it is dangerous is that the system frequently turns the lights on and off as you drive under motorway bridges or underpasses. In once instance recently I was driving around a large roundabout that went under the motorway, as I was going under the motorway the lights came on automatically and a HGV pulled out in front of me at point blank range, almost certainly because he thought I’d flashed him out. This has happened dozens of times including another case where I went under a tree and the lights came on, a car pulled out of a side road right in front of me.

      • January 11, 2019 12:14 pm

        I really dislike the use of headlights during the day when conditions are perfectly lighted. I find them an annoying distraction.

    • Ben Vorlich permalink
      January 11, 2019 10:55 am

      LED total power 2W, more of a issue is keeping warm and windows clear in winter. Hot water bottles and long johns for EV drivers.

      I happen to think daylight running lights are an improvement on drivers in silver/grey/dark cars driving in the gloom with no lights on. As a cyclist I am a fan of LED lights for bicycles and daylight running lights for cars. 50 years ago I rode at night with lights no better than a candle, now I can actually see where I’m going and cars coming from behind can see me from 100s of metres away. Not only that but I can see cars in low light conditions a long way off and at juntions at any time. BTW I try to abide by the rules of the road. I’m a fan of daylight running lights even for EV.

  4. J. Seifert permalink
    January 11, 2019 12:02 am

    to boost the E.sales, they will, following the Chinese, prohibit registration of fuel cars,
    only allowing E-cars. This is what will come to the public. And nobody yet anticipates this.

    • January 11, 2019 12:16 pm

      During the 1960’s, the Chinese only allowed their population the use of bicycles. Will that be next?

  5. markl permalink
    January 11, 2019 3:42 am

    The low hanging fruit for EV ownership has been picked. Those that had good reasons to buy and the virtue signalers have already bought.

  6. Charles Wardrop permalink
    January 11, 2019 7:45 am

    EVs technological prematurity makes them, like wind and waterpowered renewables of only marginal practicability. Not good policy for future, and shocking but not surprising that international public and industrial policies and plans seem to favour them.
    What is the basic motivation of those in charge ?

    • dave permalink
      January 13, 2019 10:39 am

      “What is the basic motivation of those in charge.”

      They have an unrealistic plan. This is an especial problem, for some reason, for Great Britain’s decision makers and has been for a long time. The idiocy reached a low point in WW2 when Russia invaded Finland and the British Government seriously considered declaring war on Russia. Fighting a united Germany and Russia! That would have worked out well.

  7. Coeur de Lion permalink
    January 11, 2019 7:49 am

    I get 54 mpg from my medium sized Picasso diesel with its urea based exhaust cleaner.

    • Bitter@twisted permalink
      January 11, 2019 8:08 am

      Between 55 and 60 mpg from our 2.0 Tdi Touran and up to 25mpg from my 56 year old 3.4L Jaguar😁

  8. Ian Wilson permalink
    January 11, 2019 8:05 am

    I wonder how many car occupants have lost their lives in fires after accidents due to the Green Blob’s campaign against diesel and the switch to more explosive petrol. The numbers might be small but it has to be one of the nastiest ways to die.

    • Gerry, England permalink
      January 11, 2019 1:59 pm

      I think a lithium battery is far more entertaining in a crash. Just add water.

      • Tim the Coder permalink
        January 11, 2019 3:17 pm

        Or CO2, or Nitrogen, or Halon, or sand, or just about anything actually.
        A tank of liquid argon might put it out.
        Fire Brigade will just establish cordon and wait for it to burn out – what else can they do?

  9. Mike Higton permalink
    January 11, 2019 9:08 am

    While I am not a BEV enthusiast, there is another way to look at the figures.
    December sales were 60% up on last year’s. If that trend continues, the sales growth will be considerably greater than the year-to-year comparison suggests.
    IMHO there will an initial surge in sales then things will settle down, unless we get more misguided interference from government.

  10. January 11, 2019 9:30 am

    Reblogged this on ajmarciniak.

  11. January 11, 2019 10:31 am

    It would be interesting to see depreciation data for EVs. We know they’re expensive when new.

    The suspicion must be that people don’t want the risk of an old battery having to be replaced at vast cost compared to the residual value of the car itself.

    • In The Real World permalink
      January 11, 2019 12:36 pm

      The media is either reluctant , [ or under pressure ], to tell about the massive depreciation of electric vehicles .
      Because a battery pack will only last for so many charging cycles , after about 5 to 8 years of normal use in a car , the battery will need replacing . The cost of this can be about £10,000 , [ varies with size .]
      This is why E Vs have the biggest depreciation of just about any road car , at about 80% over 5 years .

      • January 11, 2019 5:34 pm

        The Americans seem to have figured out the economics and generally lease rather than buy EVs.

      • Joe Public permalink
        January 11, 2019 8:21 pm

        ITRW:

        Depends which media.

        Fleet News:

        “Nissan and pricing experts at KeeResources believe more retail data is needed to help improve the accuracy for residual values (RVs) on electric vehicles (EVs).”

        Translation:
        Actual RVs are horrendously embarrassing, how can we massage the figures.

        “KeeResources’ Kwikcarcost data shows a Leaf Hatch Acenta 30kW 6.6kW charger Auto with an RV of £6,800 or 22% after three years/30,000 miles.

        This compares to a Ford Focus 1.5TDCi 120 ST-Line diesel which depreciates to 38% over the same operating period (the Focus also has a residual value of 31% over the more fleet-typical three years/60,000 miles).”

        https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2017/05/31/more-ev-sales-data-needed-to-aid-accurate-calculation-of-residuals

  12. Geoffb permalink
    January 11, 2019 10:43 am

    EVs are is doomed to failure because there has been no thought put into recharging (refueling).
    Consumers are used to filling the tank and having enough fuel to travel 300 to 400 miles, with heating/aircon, heated seats ,lights and music. EVs must offer the same or better for users to willingly embrace the new technology, offering subsidies and raising taxes on petrol/diesel is not the way to do it.

    The lack of standards and compatibility between the different manufacturers of both vehicles and charging systems is a major handicap as well as long charging times and the 50% of vehicles that would not have access to re-charging at home (on street parking).

    For EVs to stand a chance the battery must be standardised and “swappable” in a few minutes. This would take place at the equivalent of a petrol station.The battery would be owned by the battery company and the vehicle by the customer. There would be a fee to use the battery.
    It has been tried in Israel and went bust, Renault made the car.

    The other problem is the forcing of EVs on us because of the climate change doom mongers that state we have to do it NOW. If the technology were left to develop in its own time with continuous improvement then at some point people might take it up because its better/cheaper.

    Of course its only really necessary to rush the change to EVs if global warming is really going destroy life as we know it!!!!!

  13. Ian permalink
    January 11, 2019 11:00 am

    We’ve all seen the latest bad news for Landrover. Another issue for the avoid-Diesel approach is the likely impact on the caravan and camping industry and market. BEVs can’t be used for towing and petrol-engined towing is expensive.

  14. January 11, 2019 12:22 pm

    Paul Homewood, it is time to re-post the sad tale of the little authoress who had the electric vehicle, accompanied by all the proper apps on her cell phone in order to recharge it on her mountainous trek to her book signing.

    She was totally dependent on her car and the apps. Both failed. As I recall, she had to be towed and was 45 minutes late to her book-signing. So sad. So predictable.

    • Gerry, England permalink
      January 11, 2019 2:00 pm

      That was funny. I enjoyed her stupidity.

  15. Ian Miller permalink
    January 11, 2019 12:37 pm

    Quoting the earlier writer, – – “to boost the E.sales, they will, following the Chinese, prohibit registration of fuel cars”,
    .
    Though we voted to LEAVE the EU, our so-called ‘betters’ who know better will ignore and trash any semblance of democracy. This disgusting and arrogant New World Order’s ‘ELITE’ are intent on dominating all aspects of our lives from now on.and Life won’t be worth living.
    Thank God I expect to be on this planet only another 16 years After this time – I can only be off to a better place, – PROPERLY RUN . I pity the young with all this to look forward to.

    • Gerry, England permalink
      January 11, 2019 2:06 pm

      As it stands, the backstop of the exit deal contains a requirement to keep all the climate change BS, and because no trade deal can make the Irish border frictionless, we will be stuck in it. However, leaving with no deal is not a rational option and our only hope is that once out, more intelligent people will realise a UK EEA agreement is our only viable future option.

      • It doesn't add up... permalink
        January 11, 2019 6:31 pm

        …which would still leave us signed up to all the climate change BS. remember, Iceland and Norway have some of the highest renewables energy supply on the planet, thanks to hydro and geothermal. Liechtenstein can afford almost anything as a tax haven.

        Our best hope is the gilets jaunes and anti EU rebellion from the likes of the Poles (who are heavily dependent on coal).

  16. Gerry, England permalink
    January 11, 2019 2:02 pm

    So a useful comparison I think is:
    Battery cars – 15,474
    Ford Fiesta – 95,892

  17. mikewaite permalink
    January 11, 2019 3:11 pm

    I thought that Parker’s guide might give some indication of the depreciation and for, eg Nissan Leaf, a 2014 model with 35000 miles is about £10500 ie just under half the initial price. I don’t know however good a 4 year old battery would be and presumably it depends on the no of recharge/discharge cycles . At 35000 miles , possibly 150 – 200 cycles (assuming 200 miles range) . How would that affect the battery if replacement of the latter is a very expensive overhead.
    I liked the car though, very much.

    • January 11, 2019 4:18 pm

      Mike, I liked the Leaf too, it was a good car but way overpriced for what it offered compared to an I/C car of the same size. We really pushed the sales people to give us honest range figures for various conditions. They reckoned that 150 miles was OK on a long motorway journey in summer but realistically about half that in winter. The reason given was that heater, lights, wipers etc all reduced range in addition to rain and snow increasing rolling resistance and further reducing range. I believe the Leaf was also fitted with a battery heater that ran when conditions were sub-zero, this also reduced range. For me it was just way too much of a hassle to basically double my journey time (on my once a month commute) to allow for a 1-2 hour stop off to charge the battery each way.

      In the end we bought a Vauxhall Corsa 3 door Limited Edition 1.4 turbo petrol 6 speed. Far cheaper than the Leaf and while the mpg around town was rubbish (approx. 34mpg), once it was sat on the motorway at a steady 60mph it did an amazing 70+mpg. It was a fab little car for long distance commutes but shockingly bad in local driving. We had downsized from our beloved Mazda double cab diesel pickup truck to the Corsa. After 2 years we simply could not live with the sacrifices in family accommodation and general practicality so we swapped it for a diesel Nissan Navara pickup truck. The Navara, despite being nearly 1 ton heavier gets the same mpg around town as the Corsa and still manages 50-60mpg on the motorway commutes AND we no longer have to make multiple trips to the shops as we can fit the whole family plus a months shopping plus cargo and still get same mpg as the little petrol Corsa in local driving!

      • dearieme permalink
        January 11, 2019 7:10 pm

        What do you use the flat bed for? Do you have a locking compartment there?

  18. iananthonyharris permalink
    January 11, 2019 4:15 pm

    I do not see how in the foreseeable tech future that battery cars are going to be more than a small percentage. They have a limited range, there are few charging points, and even if there were many more, even a quick charge is half-an-hour or more for a top-up, as against five minutes for a tank full. And how to charge your car if you don’t have a garage or off street parking as in most cities? It’s a nonsense.
    Then there’s the cost of installing tens of thousands of charging points, getting current to them etc etc. Totally impractical.

  19. dearieme permalink
    January 11, 2019 7:09 pm

    I’m tempted to buy a plug in hybrid when our diesel car dies: it’s just that I’ll want a bigger subsidy from everyone else if I’m to do it.

  20. January 12, 2019 5:38 am

    Reblogged this on Climate Collections.

  21. January 12, 2019 12:43 pm

    “What do you use the flat bed for? Do you have a locking compartment there?”

    dearieme, the bed on our pickup is covered with a lockable fibreglass canopy. This offers several advantages over a tarpaulin:

    1) It is reasonably secure but we don’t really leave anything in there anyway, cargo is offloaded as soon as we get home etc.

    2) It is aerodynamic, ours is actually very aerodynamic compared to some, which helps mpg at speed on the motorway.

    3) It essentially converts the pickup bed into a large dry ‘van’ albeit not quite as easy to access as a proper van.

    We’ve considered buying a van but very few offer 4wd and the cabins are not as car like as the pickup trucks. Also parking a pickup is not really any more difficult than parking a saloon car, especially as the Navara has reversing cameras and very large mirrors, vans are larger, wider and more impractical for dual use. I use my pickup truck for work, for carrying building materials for house renovations, for carrying heavy, oil covered parts such as engines and gearboxes for my LR restorations as well as carrying shopping, sledges, bikes and camping equipment etc and it happily carries the whole family (5 of us) in addition to cargo. It is not perfect but it is a good compromise and for our situation has proven to be a really practical family vehicle.

    We’ve tried small hatchbacks, estate cars etc but they all require greater sacrifices than the pickup. This new generation of twin turbo diesel engines also provide very good economy even in such large vehicles, not far short of the mpg you can get from a large saloon. On a long motorway run in good conditions I can get close to 60mpg from the 2 ton 4×4 truck and 34mpg around town. The mpg doesn’t really change much even when carrying the whole family and over 500Kg of cargo, in part due to 400Nm of torque at 2k rpm.

    I have no real opposition to EV’s myself, in fact my Father was an electrical engineer and he was very enthusiastic about them. The potential is there but sadly the current designs are fatally flawed IMHO. They are trying to fit electric propulsion systems into a configuration that was optimised for I/C vehicles.

    To really utilise the benefits of electric power they need to switch to hub mounted motors and do entirely away with the engine/gearbox/axles layout that they are currently using. This is especially true in larger vehicles such as 4×4’s.

    The increase in unsprung mass using hub motors is largely irrelevant on such large 4×4’s which already have higher unsprung mass than cars. Drivers of 4×4’s are already used to slightly poorer handling and slightly harsher suspension so would barely notice the hub motors. Hub motors can be fitted to all four wheels giving the benefits of a conventional 4×4 plus the advantages of low CoG, ability to control the power at each wheel independently giving maximum traction in poor conditions etc.

    Hub motors allow for smaller batteries as there is less power loss in the transmission and they can give awesome performance. Four 60Kw hub motors can be bought off the shelf now for reasonable price and would offer the equivalent of 400hp and 4000 Nm of torque (not a misprint!) – should be more than sufficient to haul a 4×4 pickup along even fully loaded. 🙂 Also the current big diesel engines, high and low range gearboxes, propshafts and axles fitted large 4×4’s such as my Navara weigh as much as a ton in total which could instead be replaced with the weight of the battery so no overall increase in weight of vehicle. It may be 20 years before the mainstream manufacturers go down this route though as it means radical changes to model designs. I’ve only seen a few specialist sports cars using hub motors at the moment.

    • Dave Ward permalink
      January 12, 2019 1:04 pm

      Re Hub Motors – from my cynical & jaded viewpoint the potential failure mode of high current flexible cables running along the suspension arms would be a really good reason to avoid them! Why not take a look back and copy the ideas used on the humble Citroen 2CV, donkeys years ago. Fit inboard brakes, and put the individual motors next to them as well. O.K. so you still need a driveshaft and CV joints, but these are well established technology, and the unsprung weight would probably be less than wheel mounted motors and their cables. This would give the individual wheel control you want, but keeps the cables short, and stationary.

      I would also question the advantage of using motors on a 4×4 which are often used for low speed, heavily loaded work. That’s just the kind of situation which will kill a motor, unless it has forced ventilation (which requires more complexity & power). There are a number of TV programmes looking at railways around the world, and motor and generator overheating during loaded hill starts and subsequent slow climbing is regularly mentioned.

      • January 12, 2019 1:27 pm

        You make some good points Dave.

        I still believe the conventional layout currently used (engine, trans, props and axles) needs to be dropped in favour of a layout better suited to electric motors but we shall wait and see how things develop.

        You’re right about the low speed issue, in many ways that is why in the past we have seen hydraulic hub motors being fitted to heavy agricultural and mining equipment as it doesn’t suffer issues on that initial start up? However I’m sure technology can overcome these issues with EV hub motors.

        Yes, the electric cabling for any EV worries me regardless of where the motor is mounted. I always remember how careful my Father was when working on his electric fork lift trucks, the risks were considerably higher than what most people are used to. Fine for an industrial environment where tight controls and employee training could be implemented. I’m not sure how it will work with Joe Public exposed to these systems at home.

        If you have 10 mins to spare you could take a look at these EV hub motors. They seem to suggest they have overcome many of the problems. Their website even suggests they are working on versions for HGV’s so surely they must have some solution to getting those heavy loads moving?

        https://www.proteanelectric.com/protean-drive/#models

  22. Dave Ward permalink
    January 12, 2019 12:45 pm

    Since much of Europe is currently being blanketed by several feet (metres, even?) of Global Warming, I wonder how long before some misguided EV owner loses their life, while stuck in a snow drift with a flat battery, and no means of keeping warm? More to the point, if such a thing does happen, will our biased media even report it, or at least, the real reason?

    • January 12, 2019 12:59 pm

      Agree, there is much more risk of running out of charge in an EV during heavy snow conditions but to be fair here, you should see the number of numpties that drive around here in heavy snow in I/C vehicles on wide summer tyres, without even de-misting their windows before setting off and having no skill whatsoever, many of whom run around on vapours as they don’t plan ahead and ensure their fuel tanks are full. I’ve had to tow dozens of these idiots out of local ditches or snow covered rural lanes using our Land Rovers.

      The joke is that the LR’s will often be driving around in a few inches of snow or slush in rear wheel drive only as the conditions are not sufficiently slippy enough on the winter tyres to allow 4wd to be engaged (no center diffs means you get trans wind up in 4×4 even on snow or ice as the tyres grip so well). It always makes me smile when BMW drivers claim they crashes because they are rear wheel drive, all my jap pickups and classic LR’s are rear drive when driving on the roads. Tyres and very high ground clearance is what mainly keeps the LR’s moving in deep snow, more so than simply having 4WD.

      • Dave Ward permalink
        January 12, 2019 3:02 pm

        “Numpties that drive around here in heavy snow in I/C vehicles on wide summer tyres”

        My winter wheels & tyres are still in the shed, but will go on as soon as the forecast looks like some actual, real snow is on the way.

        “And ensure their fuel tanks are full”

        I admit to once making that misteak, but it was only on the way back to my employers yard at the end of the working day. And I was in the middle of the city, not miles from anywhere!

        “No center diffs means you get trans wind up in 4×4 even on snow or ice as the tyres grip so well”

        Which also applies to a certain elderly Italian vehicle with a 4wd conversion by Steyr-Puch!

        “Tyres and very high ground clearance is what mainly keeps the LR’s moving in deep snow”

        Which also applied to the venerable Austin Maxi, of which I have considerable experience! It’s amazing what a bit of extra ride height (courtesy of easily adjusted Hydragas suspension) does. And no sniggering from the back by Citroen owners…

  23. January 12, 2019 2:49 pm

    I have to admit to really liking the look of this EV, think it would sit quite nicely on our drive next to the old Land Rovers.

    https://mwmotors.cz/luka-ev/

    NB. Mike Ward, this was one of the EV’s that uses hub motors (or will when/if it goes into production)

    • January 12, 2019 2:49 pm

      Sorry, I meant Dave Ward!

      • Dave Ward permalink
        January 12, 2019 3:28 pm

        Mike / Dave – whatever!

        I’ve looked at your earlier link, and 28/36kg for the 40 & 80kW motors respectively seems to me to be rather a lot of unsprung weight. Granted, existing cars have the brakes mounted outboard, which this design covers, but if they really want to reduce weight (particularly unsprung) why not do like Jaguar did (decades ago) and use the driveshaft as one wishbone. This layout has been used by many performance car builders since, and seems to cope with considerably more power than originally intended. I note that Protean technology has “Motors with integrated power electronics and digital control, packaged with a compatible friction brake”. Even more reason not to the put them outboard, where they will be pounded by vibration, rain & salt! Put them inboard, with lightweight and torsionally stiff (carbon composite?) driveshafts, and I might be more easily convinced.

        The LukaEV is certainly interesting, and with only 12.5kW per wheel the unsprung weight isn’t going to be too much of an issue. Whether it will ever be a commercial success is another matter. How a small, “niche” manufacturer can find the money for R&D, with present safety and environmental standards to meet, is a bit of a concern. I think we’re all waiting for Tesla to go t**s up first…

  24. January 12, 2019 6:45 pm

    “I’ve looked at your earlier link, and 28/36kg for the 40 & 80kW motors respectively seems to me to be rather a lot of unsprung weight. ”

    Dave Ward, yes agreed, addition 36Kg would be considered a lot on a normal car however do remember that most large 4×4’s, especially older Land Rovers, Range Rovers, Toyota Land Cruisers and Mitsubishi Shoguns (and many modern LCV’s) have live axles.

    I can assure you (having rebuilt many of them over the years) that they weigh way more than 36Kg, I’d guess at 150-200Kg of unsprung weight on EACH live axle of a Series Land Rover and that is excluding the weight of the tyres/wheels! a little less on coil sprung Land Rovers and Range Rovers. I guess it depends on what you are used to driving as to how much you’d notice or be inconvenienced by high unsprung weights.

    My wife and I have large 33″ diameter tyres fitted to our LR’s and they are mounted on heavy duty steal wheels. The combined weight of each wheel/tyre combo is so heavy (approx 50Kg) that it requires two of us to manoeuvre the tyres onto the hubs when we are swapping tyres (or lifting them onto the bonnet where the spare is stored). However the ride and handling is perfectly fine, as mentioned in a previous post, my wifes LWB LR is honestly just as comfortable as my 3yr old Nissan Navara and is actually a much better handling vehicle than the Navara on our local rural roads which is odd considering the Navara uses coil sprung independent suspension where the LR uses leaf springs and live axles!

    In all honesty the only reasons we choose to use the modern Navara over the old LR’s is the noise levels and the economy. The old LR’s are horrifically noisy (even with the vast amounts of sound proofing that I’ve fitted to them), especially at higher motorway speeds. Not so bad at 30-40mph in local driving but any long motorway journeys we would be insane to choose the LR’s over the Navara unless we are going to a classic car show that is. Also the Navara gets twice the mpg on the motorway and has a 700 mile range on a full tank so we don’t need to visit filling stations very often.

  25. glenwaytown permalink
    January 13, 2019 1:15 pm

    I think buying up farmland around motorway service stations is going to be an excellent investment. When our future leaders ban diesel and petrol cars can you imagine the space needed to recharge the cars? Filling up an internal combustion car takes about 2 minutes – every 300 or so miles. Recharging an electric car to 80% takes about 40 minutes on a fast charger every (very generous) 150 miles or so. So the required space for the same number of cars would be 40 times what it is today. When you factor in continuing net immigration of 300k or so it will be even worse.

    • January 13, 2019 1:42 pm

      LOL, there is certainly some truth in that!

      Also anybody that lives in a house with good amounts of off street parking would see their house increase in value while houses/flats with no off street parking/charging facility will face drops in value?

      We can fit four cars on our drive plus two more down the side of the house and in the workshop. Maybe I should get a heavy duty electric supply to my house so I can rent out spaces to my neighbours who don’t have drives. Sounds silly but I would not be surprised to see a rise in demand for off street parking/charging space.

      I just can’t see how on street charging will work because you can’t have cables trailing across the pavement, not to mention the high risk of yobs finding it amusing to walk past drunk late at night and unplug your charger. Even in our small rural village we still suffer from drunk teenagers getting up to no good late at night. I suspect a cable trailing from car to charging point would be too great a temptation to some idiots.

      To be fair though, in all honesty for most people why would you need to use a motorway service to charge the car? Even though we can go as much as 700 miles between fillups on our modern diesel car, if we had a diesel pump at home we would not go to a filling station. 700 mile range is more than enough to cover virtually any journey we do, even my 250 mile round trips to head office. In fact 100 mile range would be enough for 90% of our journeys. So given that I could charge my EV at home I would be avoiding motorway services at all costs (I do that even with diesel because they are more expensive than local filling station). As long as they can get the range of these EV’s up to a genuine 200-300 miles (even in very cold winter conditions) then I don’t think we’ll have too many people having to charge at ‘filling’ stations.

      The biggest problem with EV’s is not the vehicles themselves but rather the electricity generation and distribution network. If the government and green movement genuinely wanted to see a far speedier take up of EV’s they should have first ensured that we have sufficient cheap and reliable grid electric supply, that means building many more power stations. If the greens don’t want coal or gas then they must support nuclear. Solar and Wind are just not suitable for a mass uptake of EV’s. Hoping that growing numbers of EV’s will force electricity generators to pull extra electricity from a magic hat is not a good policy. The government should be building lots of nuclear power stations and maintaining existing coal/gas powered stations well into the future IMHO.

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