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How Much Will Loss & Damage Cost?–Foreign Office Have No Idea

December 8, 2022

By Paul Homewood

 

Following COP27 and the tentative agreement to set up a “loss and damage” fund, I thought I would ask the Foreign Office a few questions about the cost to the UK.

 

 

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I knew they would have no answers to my questions. But who in their right mind would agree to something when they have no idea of the cost or how they would pay for it?

46 Comments
  1. December 8, 2022 10:10 am

    How to quantify and attribute the loss and damage.
    Long court battle, lawyers get rich, everyone else loses

    • December 8, 2022 10:19 am

      Especially as the whole crock is not connected to or based upon statistically significant empirical data of any kind.

    • December 8, 2022 4:01 pm

      Shakespeare had it right – “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”:
      Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2

  2. December 8, 2022 10:10 am

    Nobody in their right mind would agree to such an ephemeral agreement and therein lies the problem. When it comes to ‘climate change’ our Government is not in its right mind and hasn’t been so since the Climate Change Act was voted in by the numpties.

    • December 9, 2022 2:21 pm

      Politicians would as they love the virtue-signal with other people’s money.

  3. Harry Passfield permalink
    December 8, 2022 10:15 am

    Very helpful of the respondent to tell you which dept would hold the information you requested – or do they expect you to raise an FOIA for every dept?

  4. December 8, 2022 10:18 am

    Once upon a time this used to be called criminal incompetence……

  5. December 8, 2022 10:20 am

    They agree to it so they can enjoy many more COP jamborees at public expense, arguing about who pays who what, and for what – or why they won’t pay.

  6. Mr Robert Christopher permalink
    December 8, 2022 10:42 am

    “But who in their right mind would agree to something when they have no idea of the cost or how they would pay for it?”

    The UK Government do that all the time, for everything: not only Climate Change/NET Zero policies!

    When any new development is initiated, if they don’t have a detailed specification, a plan and a competent professional, with relevant experience, there’s no responsibility to ensure the quality, the timetable of deliveries, or the value for money of the project.

    And how often are there consequences when a government project fails?

    Exactly!

  7. Mack permalink
    December 8, 2022 10:44 am

    A bit like HMG’s cost/benefit analysis for the headlong rush to the Year Zero although, in that case, I think a clairvoyant in the civil service did actually pluck a number out of thin air, doubled it and then scribbled it down on the back of a fag packet somewhere before hiding it in the Grimm’s Fairy Tale Office in the Treasury. Yup, we’re all doomed.

  8. James Mason permalink
    December 8, 2022 10:48 am

    Morning Paul I didn’t hear it this morning myself but it appears that R4 Today reported on the opening of the Cumbrian mine. Tim Farron (who is dead against the plan) was interviewed and gave a typical tirade against it. Interestingly, the MP for the constituency in which the mine is located wasn’t given the courtesy of a reply. A token gesture at ‘balance’ was provided with a short quote from the local mayor who was given a derisory  fraction of the time afforded Fallon and that was it! Worth a follow-up? Kind regards James

    CAUTION:  This email isconfidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected fromdisclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone +44(0)1643 818745 or email the sender and delete this message together with anyattachments from your system.  If you are not the intended recipient youmust not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any otherperson.  This document and attachments thereto have been scanned for allknown viruses prior to delivery.  Nevertheless, recipients are remindedthat it is their responsibility to scan all incoming email for viruses.

    • mjr permalink
      December 8, 2022 5:55 pm

      “politics today” had the double joy of George Moneyblot railing against the mine and also Justin Rowlatt talking about the oncoming mass extinction that is supposed to be happening soon . Double bubble!!! At least they did have a local politician supporting the mine for the jobs (and also saying that they have never seen one of the “green” jobs that keep getting promised

  9. December 8, 2022 11:05 am

    “But who in their right mind would agree to something when they have no idea of the cost or how they would pay for it?”

    Paul, you have a very short memory (not rude, purely rhetorical ); we are still waiting for the Treasury/NHS/SAGE cost benefit analysis from 2020, are we not. You cannot be confident of a change of tack with your FoI request, far too tricky and inconvenient a topic for their tiny collective brains.

    • Tim Pateman permalink
      December 8, 2022 12:07 pm

      Funny, I don’t recall seeing a cost benefit analysis for HS2 either, now there’s a blank cheque if there ever was one, last I saw annual maintenance is set to be 2 to 3 times optimum annual income, add that to the financing costs of the £150B price tag and it is plain how thick all 650 MPs and their many thousands of ‘experts’ are.

      • Cheshire Red permalink
        December 8, 2022 5:03 pm

        HS2 was commissioned on EU orders. Part of their Trans-European (TEN-T) network of high speed rail.

        Government just ran it straight through without serious C/B, and have over-ruled public objections ever since.

        Notice how there’s been almost no serious efforts by our politico’s to stop it, including in Hunt’s budget when the nation was desperate for government to reduce spending?

        Now EU know why!

      • mjr permalink
        December 8, 2022 6:22 pm

        the business case was originally based on the time wasted by business people sitting on a train for hours being unable to work (i.e. before wireless internet and laptops!!!)

      • Max Beran permalink
        December 9, 2022 1:40 am

        Too right! Anything spent on infrastructure beyond London and the southeast is just throwing good money after bad.

  10. T Walker permalink
    December 8, 2022 11:14 am

    Well your point is well made as usual Paul, but the answer to your rhetorical question in the last sentence is – a good few million in the UK. But then why would citizens not think it OK to operate in such a fashion when their government has made it into an art form.

  11. December 8, 2022 11:20 am

    Well – the government have done that with Net Zero so why not this idiocy as well? The best comment I saw on Zero was that it was like jumping out of an aeroplane without a parachute and hoping that someone will design manufacture and find a way of bringing it to you before you hit the ground. I fear we are getting close to the ground now.

    • Douglas Dragonfly permalink
      December 9, 2022 8:14 am

      Thank you for sharing your knowledge on Hinkley. It does not bode well for the future.

  12. Mad Mike permalink
    December 8, 2022 11:54 am

    So basically we have signed up to compensate other nations for the consequences of their weather.

    Is there a time limit on this or an indication of what weather events qualify? If it is based on more extreme weather events than have been experienced in the past, it shouldn’t cost much at all.

  13. W Flood permalink
    December 8, 2022 12:17 pm

    But the thing is that none of the regional governments are any more sensible, if anything even worse, so it is not worth escaping over any borders. There is No Hiding Place.

  14. Brian O'Hara permalink
    December 8, 2022 12:23 pm

    By agreeing to this nonsense the UK and other governments have committed themselves and are, therefore, liable for action in coming to an agreement on a sum of money to be shared out. This begs the question, is this commitment legally binding? Because a certain body will see this as their pension fund.

  15. HoxtonBoy permalink
    December 8, 2022 1:30 pm

    Couldn’t we just give all of these countries a blank cheque to be filled in as and when they decide. That seems very fair to pay for our crime of bringing them the benefits of civilisation in the first place.

  16. Mike Jackson permalink
    December 8, 2022 1:36 pm

    The entire business is nothing other than halo-polishing!
    Remember when that phrase becomes common parlance you heard it hear first!! 🤡

    • Mike Jackson permalink
      December 8, 2022 1:36 pm

      Or even ‘here’!

  17. Dave Gardner permalink
    December 8, 2022 1:52 pm

    “But who in their right mind would agree to something when they have no idea of the cost or how they would pay for it?”

    UK foreign policy since the 1950s has been to engage in talking to foreign countries just for the sake of it, with no real idea of what the talking will lead to, since the 1950s. This policy can be summed up in the phrase ‘jaw-jaw is better than war-war’.

    I was going to attribute the phrase to Winston Churchill, as most people do, but apparently it comes from Harold Macmillan according to this blogger:

    https://richardlangworth.com/jaw-jaw

    There is rumoured to be a case where the enthusiasm for ‘jaw jaw’ actually led to ‘war war’. The UK decided to start up exploratory discussions about the future of the Falkland Islands with Argentina in the 1970s. The Argentinians interpreted British behaviour in the discussions as them not really wanting to keep the Falkland Islands, and this may have contributed to the ill-fated invasion of the islands by Argentina in 1982.

  18. Douglas Dragonfly permalink
    December 8, 2022 2:05 pm

    Anyone got up to date info. on Hinkley Point power station?
    Specifically the latest expenditure and technical info.
    I’ve heard a massive cock up in the construction of the water outlet pipes is a very serious course for concern.
    Something to do with the reinforced steel floating nto the top while the concrete was setting.
    I’m asking because this project seems to be hemorrhaging money even more than say the pointless HS ral line from London to Birmingham.

    • December 8, 2022 4:56 pm

      https://bit.ly/3HjYJA2
      EDF has told City AM that it has secured 14 years of funding for the UK nuclear plant under construction at Hinkley Point C (HPC) in case of the risk of further delays. EDF has agreed updates to its original contract-for-difference (CfD) signed with the Uk government in 2016. The updated CfD ensures EDF’s funding will continue even if Hinkley Point does not start operating until 2036 as planned.

      However, EDF confirmed that the project is still on course for completion in 2027, following an approximately two-year delay due to the pandemic and supply chain disruptions. Nevertheless, the project is also roughly 45% over budget with the original projected cost of GBP18bn ($22bn) having now risen to GBP26bn. (50% more than the original budget from 2016)

      For comparison the build of the Sizewell B PWR took 6 years from first permanent structural concrete to fuel load. The CEGB planned to construct a fleet of 10 NPSs to the same design for a total budget of £20 billion. Privitisation of the electricity supply industry scuppered those plans and so we have the chaos of present times.

      • It doesn't add up... permalink
        December 8, 2022 6:41 pm

        It is all very mysterious. I wrote to the LCCC recently, asking them when they were going to publish properly indexed prices for AR4 in their CFD Register. They told me this will not happen until March when all the indexed prices are updated for inflation again. I wrote back pointing out that in the mean time they should flag the AR4 prices as not being indexed, as they were in no way comparable with earlier CFD indexed prices, with only the 2012 money strike price being reported. I also asked whether they were going to update the Hinklet Point record in view of the renegotiations. It is currently included at £113.83/MWh on the basis that the strike price of £89.50/MWh in 2012 money will apply, which was contingent on Sizewell C going ahead under the original plans: since those are altered, perhaps the higher strike price of £92.50/MWh applies, or even a different price altogether.

        I did note that LCCC were reported as saying that the revised contract gave EdF an incentive to get the plant running as soon as possible. Perhaps they meant that they have until 2036 to enjoy higher market prices?

    • December 8, 2022 5:05 pm

      EDF has told City AM that it has secured 14 years of funding for the UK nuclear plant under construction at Hinkley Point C (HPC) in case of the risk of further delays. EDF has agreed updates to its original contract-for-difference (CfD) signed with the Uk government in 2016. The updated CfD ensures EDF’s funding will continue even if Hinkley Point does not start operating until 2036 as planned.

      However, EDF confirmed that the project is still on course for completion in 2027, following an approximately two-year delay due to the pandemic and supply chain disruptions. Nevertheless, the project is also roughly 45% over budget with the original projected cost of GBP18bn ($22bn) having now risen to GBP26bn.

      For comparison the construction of the Sizewell B PWR took 6 years from first permanent structural concrete to fuel load. The CEGB planned to build a fleet of 10 NPSs to the Sizewell design for a total budget of £20 billion. Of course privatisation of the electricity supply industry scuppered those plans and hence you see the chaos engulfing the industry today.

  19. catweazle666 permalink
    December 8, 2022 2:22 pm

    It strikes me that the whole notion of “loss and damage” implies that it will end up in court, which will mean that the plaintiffs will be required to produce concrete evidence for their claims, backed up with solid scientific evidence.

    Now, that could get – er – “interesting”!

  20. Mad Mike permalink
    December 8, 2022 2:52 pm

    In recent years we’ve had a constant drip of guilt making opinions about colonialisation, white supremacy, slavery etc which has been mainly aimed at the young and impressionable but seems to have overflowed to our politicians. The aim has been to make us feel ashamed of our past and our country/society and consequently sap our confidence in who we are. Our young do not feel proud of their country and lack a feeling of belonging to something good. It’s a generalisation but we can see the effects quite clearly when we are taking quite seriously the claims by the likes of Barbados who want reparation from us for historical actions, mainly to do with slavery which nobody today had any say in. A confident country would tell them to take a hike while we laugh at their cheek.

    This agreement is merely an addition to the list of historical misdemeanours for which we are supposed to be responsible.

    Scams abound.

    • Sylvia permalink
      December 8, 2022 2:58 pm

      Well said Mad Mike !!! We really ought to stand up to these lies and nonsense.

    • December 8, 2022 4:03 pm

      An editorial in Kenya’s national newspaper ‘The Nation’ in summer 1992 asked for the British to come back and take over all its old African colonies; due to the economic mess created by the indigenous governments.

      • It doesn't add up... permalink
        December 8, 2022 6:44 pm

        Sadly these days we would simply compound the mess by imposing our modern dogmas on them. I can understand why they might have looked to the UK in 1992 in the aftermath of a period of restoration of sound government. But Black Wednesday was just around the corner by then.

    • Gamecock permalink
      December 8, 2022 8:04 pm

      Lemme guess: Barbados demands are written in English.

  21. Sylvia permalink
    December 8, 2022 2:55 pm

    WHY are we governed by a band of CHIMPANZEES ??? WE NEED RELIABLE POWER AND ENERGY why are our politicians hell bent on destroying our RELIABLE ENERGY so our lights GO OUT ???

  22. December 8, 2022 3:08 pm

    Reblogged this on Climate Collections.

  23. Brian O'Hara permalink
    December 8, 2022 3:24 pm

    Really, Sylvia, that’s slur on the intelligence of CHIMPANZEES!

  24. Malcolm permalink
    December 8, 2022 3:41 pm

    How do we know what is causing most things we are being asked (told??) to compensate?

    For instance, most of the Pacific Islands claiming to be drowning from rising sea levels are atolls growing up from the sea bed. The mid Pacific sea bed is sinking, not the sea rising. Now as they sink they grow more round their coasts so some are actually getting bigger! Some certainly are shrinking slightly until they grow again. But none of it is sea level rising.

    Are we going to be bullied into paying for global warming threatening to flood their islands? Of course we might help as we so often do – but it is nature not us, we are blameless.

    Where is the money coming from? We have just cut the Foreign Aid budget from 0.7% to 0.5%, will we cut it again to make these funds available?

  25. a-man-of-no-rank permalink
    December 8, 2022 3:50 pm

    In an ideal world I would study the manifestos at election time and vote accordingly. None of these ‘open cheque’ agreements from the annual COP meetings seem to appear in said manifestos. Are they telling me not to bother voting?

    • December 8, 2022 4:07 pm

      As all political parties seem to do what they want having been elected, irrespective of their manifestos, then I guess that’s what they are telling us. A lovely thought would be that nobody votes in an election and thus no MP can be returned to Parliament. However, there are enough party faithul (useful idiots) out there to destroy that dream!

  26. Martin Brumby permalink
    December 8, 2022 5:31 pm

    Well, precisely.

    But, in fairness, when Ed Miliband pushed the Climate Change Act 2008 through a willing Parliament for 60% reduction in CO2, no-one had the foggiest idea what the cost would be. When the target was increased to 80% before the third reading, still no-one had a clue. When Treason May increased to target to 100% with no serious discussion just BC (before Covid), still none of the carefully selected ExSpurts knew (although the dreaded ‘deniers’ had done the sums, studiously ignored).

    That is precisely how our Beloved Leaders operate. Blunder on with their bright, cultish notions, ignoring not only the absurdity of their plans but pretending they can be achieved at zero cost.

    Even HS2, costing a bagatelle in comparison with Zero Carbon, was waved through with less thought than I give to buying a pint.

  27. Kieran O'Driscoll permalink
    December 8, 2022 7:52 pm

    Is there anyone in government qualified or competent to do anything?? Here are a couple of climate facts: The Chinese put 88 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in 8 years (2014-2022) and plan to double this in the next 8 years. Britain on the other hand with its evil industrial revolution put 78 Billion tons into the atmosphere in 277 years from (1750 to 2022)… and Sunak thinks we should pay retributions… maybe he should talk to his Indian buddies and ask them to stop polluting first and all the other brown nations!! They all appropriated our evil electricity and aeroplanes, and computers, and mobile phones, sewerage systems, water systems, etc. etc. so time to pay us reparations maybe. And the rest of you can all pay us gaels and celts for stealing our land… when do we stop…. Anglos an Saxons you can take it up with the other germanians who kicked you off the continent….

  28. ancientpopeye permalink
    December 9, 2022 8:00 am

    “I knew they would have no answers to my questions. But who in their right mind would agree to something when they have no idea of the cost or how they would pay for it?”
    Idiots, Fools, Charlatans, take your pick?

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