Try Hornby Trains Next Time, Liverpool–They Might Be More Reliable!
By Paul Homewood
h/t Joe Public
Please don’t laugh!
Passengers on the UK’s first battery-powered trains are to get refunds over delays, the Liverpool City Region mayor has said.
Steve Rotherham said the money would be returned for weekly, monthly, term-time or annual tickets for the Kirkby line in Merseyside last year.
He said it was a "gesture of goodwill" for the "teething issues".
The line became the UK’s first £500m battery-powered trains last year but has been plagued by delays.
Mr Rotherham said: "We anticipated that we would encounter some teething issues and disruption during the delivery of our new station and trains, but I’ll be the first to say that services on the Kirkby line have fallen short of the standards that our passengers deserve.
"While I cannot undo the disruption that passengers have already faced, I hope this gesture demonstrates our appreciation for their patience and understanding."
The mayor’s office said passengers who bought tickets at Fazakerley, Kirkby or Headbolt Lane stations will receive a letter with information about how to claim their money back in full.
In October, the new £80m Headbolt Lane station was opened to serve the battery-powered trains.
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NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT 
Bonkers. You have to generate electricity, to charge the vast batteries to supply electricity for the trains. Just use electric trains.
When a battery is charged and the power is used, there is huge loss of energy! When a battery system is created, there is huge lose of energy in mining, manufacturing, construction, assembly, and unending fixes and corrections and ownership of stuff that just does not work.
Where is the “huge” loss of energy in the charge/discharge cycle ?
I read this can be more than 98% efficient.
Also, with batteries, you are saving on the cost of providing power lines down the whole length of track, and of maintaining them once installed.
Ahh the kzbkzb bot is back again. It “read” that charging can be more than 98% efficient you know. Pity bots don’t know how things really work like transforming AC to battery voltage and then rectifying to DC. Perhaps the bot should “read” more before the programme runs.
Simple logic, common sense……sadly lacking in this virtual signalling world!
But presumably that requires electrifying the rail network which woukd also mean vast emissions to set up?
Towards the end of 2020 Network Rail put forward a proposal to electrify 13,000kms of rail after their research study showed hydrogen powered trains would not be suitable for long distance and freight trains.
The cost was some £30bn. The Treasury said no
It is interesting to notice, every green energy scheme results in Time and Money Wasted, worse outcomes for everyone except the scammers who got rich on the schemes.
Many people wonder if it is intended or an unintended outcome due to ignorance and stupidity?
Peterson’s Dictum: Look at the outcome; infer motivation.
“Peterson’s Dictum…”
Also known as “Cui Bono?” Who benefits? However it would be more accurate to ask, “Who EXPECTS to benefit?” since ambitious plots have a habit of going so spectacularly wrong that the instigators are ruined.
King Croesus of Lydia was told by the Oracle that if he attacked Persia he would destroy a great Empire. The Oracle was right. King Croesus destroyed his own realm.
Why anticipate problems? Why not expect them to work perfectly? Hardly a can do attitude.
It would be poor business practice not to perform a failure mode analysis and examine what is needed in the event of various types of failure, depending on the likelihood.
I realise that. I am by nature a pessimist and for that reason I would never be able to run a business being paralysed by the fear of failure. But having anticipated a problem I would try to eliminate it before operations commenced.
Well there we have the problem. These “green” solutions are invariably implemented as a matter of principle, without consideration of the failures and the implications thereof
In Japanese manufacturing they have a philosophy of ‘Right First Time’
Me thinks you don’t give refunds for ‘teething issues.’
‘a letter with information about how to claim their money back in full’
How about “abject failure issues?”
The letter should include who is being fired for this stupidity.
No one, of course. Refunds will make it alright.
Batteries are really good for Golf Carts because Golf Carts can usually be charged overnight and do not travel very fast or far. Fossil fuel is used for things that travel far distances and run day and night and refueling for long distances and long times are very reasonable time and trouble. The weight of batteries must be considered in the weight of vehicle vs the weight payloads and time lost. After any accident, most fossil fuel vehicles are repaired and put back in service after fixing the damage. After even minor accidents, many lithium battery powered vehicles can not trusted to go back in service without replacing the batteries, that is often a major cost and many sensors may also be required to be changed.
Same technology as eBikes with the same risks.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/jan/05/croydon-sydney-e-bike-workshop-fire-police-investigation-cause-battery.
Fire and Rescue NSW said more than 60 firefighters and 15 fire trucks attended Friday’s incident. Investigations into the cause of the fire were continuing.
Note towards the end of the article two more fires caused by faulty lithium-ion batteries have links
Batteries work well for drills without using the hammer function other than for the odd screw hole. At least manufacturers have now standardised batteries across their range so it reduces the battery costs.
Yellow and Black trains.
Bumblebee colors – plan on getting stung.
Avoid in future.
I wonder when the first fire will be. Will the passengers be able to get out?
A battery fire on these trains would be a big problem especially as part of the route that they take is in Liverpool’s underground.
I think it’s time to no-platform battery trains.
🤣🤣🤣👍
I wonder if its possible to use a third rail and supply power through the tracks or use overhead electrical wires which would avoid the need for batteries.
A pity no one has thought of that before Sean – oh wait a minute!!
I guess someone thought battery powered trains sounded more virtuous and futuristic than a boring third rail that loads of other lines have.
That very system was used on street cars. I can well remember seeing them in Pittsburgh, PA when we would go there shopping. Rails in the pavement and electricity through overhead wires above the streets. And the vehicle traffic was unaffected. Morgantown, WV had them when my mother was a child in the early 1900’s, but not when I came along.
Headbolt to Central is 8 miles with 7 stops and should take about 20 minutes.
The Toshiba LTO battery life is expected to be 8-10 years and limits the speed to 60mph rather than the normal 75mph. The only advantage appears to be the absence of a 3rd live rail. It seems like a huge waste of money unless there is some sort of restriction on new 3rd rail implementations. Presumably overhead is much more expensive.
8 miles with 7 stops seems more suited to a light rail tram type of system.
“£500 million…8 miles…”
£60 million a mile! Somehow, our Victorian ancestors built, mainly with hand tools, 20,000 miles of (functioning!) railroads in the 19th Century, while spending only £300 billion pounds in present money, which equates to £1.5 million a mile.
There is something almost obscene in the way money is made to ‘disappear’ in modern Britain. Some variant of the three card trick?
Hastings Pier used to have a plaque at the entrance which stated that it opened in 1871 and cost £23,000 ( £2.3 million in modern money.) It suffered damage from storms twenty years ago. My son the civil engineer said he could have fixed everything in a few weeks with ten men and fifty tons of iron and concrete. But, oh no, this little bit of cheap facility, originally promenading and boating for the day-trippers, was “a listed structure” and also “unsafe.”
After being closed and being the subject of multiple official initiatives and enduring the traditional “mysterious fire,” £14.2 million pounds was “spent,” and it is open again. But it is now without charm in my opinion.
Not a great solution for Nottingham.
The odd off peak times (about once a month) I go into Beeston, Nottigham the trams seem to have about 3 passengers at most. Probably going to fall further.
Passengers have begun paying more to use Nottingham’s trams after the operator increased its fares.
Nottingham Express Transit (NET) announced plans to raise prices “across the board” shortly after Christmas.
People travelling on the city’s tram network will pay £3.20 for an adult single ticket – a rise of 20p per journey.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-67906024
I doubt reducing fare dodgers to zero and increasing prices will make much impact on this
Nottingham tram operator posts £57 million loss – more than double the previous year
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/nottingham-tram-operator-posts-57-9020453
One of my friends has the tram run at the bottom of his once quiet garden and is none too happy with the whole thing
Whoops. A decimal point in the wrong place.
£15.0 million a mile for the Victorian work.
But that was de novo work while the Liverpool work seems to be merely a renovation.
I did quite a lot of work on Hasting Pier, corrosion and storm damage surveys and so on. Some repairs were done then including new piles. It was privately owned and proper maintenance was neglected for years. When we were underneath at low tide if we heard the sewage pump start up it was time to run! Some of Eugenius Birch’s finest work originally but the main building at the end was substantially built with 9″ brick walls and the load from that was a real issue (wave forces from storms too of course). Some happy days recovering from our ordeals with a cup of tea from one of the charming pavilions by the pier entrance.
dave: it’s worse than that !
Liverpool Central to Kirkby is a long-established electrified line on the Merseyrail system. This new section to Headbolt Lane is only one stop and is a re-instatement of a section of line that ran until the 1970’s, enabling through trains between Wigan and Liverpool via Kirkby.
It’s probably less than one mile between Headbolt Lane and the previous terminus, Kirkby.
The difference between overhead wires and third rail is down to power transmission. Rails are DC and struggle to deliver the increased power that modern trains require. Overhead wires are AC and high voltage so can deliver more power.
Third rail seems to manage fine with the London tube and also the existing Merseyrail system.
As has been stated elsewhere, the “new” section between Kirkby and Headbolt Lane is only a mile extra on the existing electrified route.
The battery trains were introduced onto the line purely because the service from Liverpool Central (electrified in 1978) was extended from Kirkby to a new station at Headbolt Lane.
Despite requiring the installation of an electrified third rail for a mere mile of track, Network Rail refused to fund it.
Merseyrail was forced to purchase hybrid trains which only actually operate with battery power for the mile between Kirkby and Headbolt Lane, although there are long term plans to operate many more of them between Ormskirk and Preston and also Headbolt Lane and Wigan.
Thanks Ian. I understand there are plans to use the new hybrid trains on the Bidston (Birkenhead) to Wrexham line, which currently uses diesel trains as it’s not electrified. Presumably the new trains could return via the Liverpool underground loop to recharge the batteries – would this be sufficient to get them to Wrexham and back, though?
These are not “the UK’s first battery-powered trains”. Aberdeen to Ballater train was operational from 1958 to 1966.
https://www.railscot.co.uk/articles/Aberdeen_to_Ballater_by_BMU:_Notes_on_the_Battery_Railcar_Experiment/
So they are finding out that battery trains – other than on the dining room table – are not a good idea just as they did in northern Germany.
Had a good morning laugh over this one.
Discussed this with a neighbour of mine who is a railway enthusiast/fanatic. He referred me to the extreme levels of lunacy that happen on the railways and how he (deliberately) goes on “ghost trains” to “ghost stations” for fun and to piss off the authorities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train
Regional/City Mayors are a ‘Gods Gift’ to climate change as each tries to outbid their rvial Mayors in Net-Zero targets
Actually, even Hornby trains take their power from the track, not batteries.
And the track power is provided from the mains via transformer.
Iceland gov in EV charging shocker…
‘Drivers of electric, hydrogen and plug-in hybrid vehicles in Iceland will have to pay a kilometre-based rate in 2024 – a year earlier than owners of diesel and petrol vehicles, who will be charged in early 2025.’
https://www.cittimagazine.co.uk/news/road-user-charging-tolling/iceland-to-introduce-distance-based-charge-for-clean-energy-vehicles-in-2024.html
‘An announcement on the Icelandic government’s website states that the kilometre-fee is part of a new system that will replace the current special fee for petrol and oil.’
‘It also states that, by implementing the new system in two steps, lessons learned from the implementation can be applied and arrangements further strengthened in future.’
Learning how to spy on their citizenry, and how much of it they will allow.
“Lessons will be learned” LOL 🙂
How often have we heard that one before !
Idiots
I wonder who profited from this one ?
Follow the money every time.
More YCNMIU from OFGEM
Paying 3 times as much as it should and then charging us for it.
£80m ‘Headbolt Lane station’
Sounds like something off Frankenstein, or is that the name of the train ?
Battery, delay!! They should talk to the Norwegians. None of their battery buses are running in the extra-cold spell they’re having, none!
£80m for not very much. But health and safety take a dim view of any new “Third rail” installations. Hence these unsatisfactory compromises. In any case the line should continue to Skelmersdale, which is not on the rail network and would be the obvious terminus, but no money for that at these prices.
“Headbolt” lane….. Is this what they are suffering from/ in need of?
I am severely concerned at the level of climate virtue signaling coming out of Local Government populated by people for whom agreeing what day it is in an achievement. Each and every one of them can virtue signal as much as they want but at their own expense, not at mine.
Who did NOT do due diligence on these trains? Have they been tried “successfully anywhere else? I see a perverse rush to “be the first” at whatever ridiculous climate piety project they choose. It is all about the individual council weasels grandstanding, nothing more. In then end which it all gets chucked on the garbage heap there will be soft interviews and quotes about “meaning well” and “all in the virtuous and good cause to save the planet”, when the people responsible should be in court being prosecuted for wilful negligent acts committed against the public purse.
Agreed.
Public transport for Liverpool-Kirkby could be provided with buses.
Or they can do what they were already doing . . . buy a car and drive themselves.
Councils ♥ public transportation. It is their sacred cause, for which they are willing to spend ALL your money.
I think you are being unduly negative there. London has its tube system and it is a massive economic advantage for London to have it.
All the council are trying to do here is restore the connectivity of the local rail network, which is surely a good objective.
No they have used this as an opportunity to virtue signal with clearly untried and untested rolling stock. If their aim was as you said then clearly a diesel fit would have sufficed.
It’s a bit daft putting on diesels for the sake of one extra station and less than one mile of unelectrified track.
The route goes underground in Liverpool city centre and running diesels through that section would be totally unacceptable.
Would they run diesel tube trains in London?
Headbolt isn’t London.
“which is surely a good objective”
Not a chance. Individual provided transport is far superior to government transport.
Do you see what I mean about a certain “poster” being a
pre-programmed bot? Always trying to cast doubt and writing like Google translate.
10-4, Ray.
Sentence formation is quite good, but zero intellect shown.
Can’t find any usage figures for Headbolt Lane station ….by all accounts it isn’t used at all ….thats £8million for nothing
Obviously the aim is to bring it back into use.
Prior to the 1970’s there was a through service to Wigan. This was lost and the idea is to re-instate this facility.
It could be important economically for Kirkby, and other areas served by the Kirkby line, because Wigan is on the west coast main line.