EV’s Are Useless In Winter, Admits AA
By Paul Homewood
Bloody good these EVs, aren’t they?
In the wake of the coldest night of the winter in the UK, Edmund King, President of the AA, has issued guidance to electric vehicle (EV) owners, emphasising the importance of preheating their cars and charging overnight.
As the nation grapples with snow and ice that led to the closure of numerous schools, Mr King warns that colder temperatures can adversely affect EV batteries, leading to longer charging times and reduced efficiency.
The AA noted that electric cars may experience a reduction in range ranging from 10% to 20% in colder temperatures.
This is attributed to the diminished efficiency of the lithium-ion battery, exacerbated by drivers activating features like heating.
This advice comes as electric vehicle users in the US, particularly in Chicago, have faced difficulties due to freezing temperatures, with reports of Tesla owners abandoning their vehicles.
Edmund King said: “EV drivers should consider keeping their cars plugged in overnight and pre-conditioning the car, which in many models can be done via an app from the comfort of your own home.”
https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/01/19/ev-drivers-urged-to-preheat-batteries-amid-cold-weather/
In the old days, before it became just another commercial outfit, the AA actually used to work for the benefit of its members, ie drivers!
And what about the millions of car owners who are not lucky enough to have offstreet parking? What does this numptie from the AA suggest they do?
Edmund King should resign in disgrace for supporting the government’s campaign to force us out of proper cars, and into these useless electric things, which in time will soon all be made in China, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of British jobs.
As for his ridiculous apps, he knows where he can stick them!
Comments are closed.
NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT 
When I got my first job, I commuted 40 miles in an old Datsun Sunny, along the M62 to Hull. It was in the late 70s, and it was in the years the diesel froze in the lorry tanks. If I put the car heating on, the engine would get slower and slower, and so I alternated between frozen feet and lack of momentum.
It doesn’t seem like we have made much progress.
Mate of mine had a Datsun Cherry in the late 70’s. Brilliant car. Nice upholstered and carpeted interior, quiet, comfortable and as reliable as you could hope for. Oh! Radio came as standard as well.
The alternatives were Allegro’s with noisy, ‘A’ series engines, beige interiors, and a square steering wheel. Or a Ford Escort; brilliant engine and gearbox but the seats were horrible kind of plastic affairs and when you shut doors it was a tinny rattle.
The later 1.3/1.6 Cavaliers were streets ahead of everyone though. The engine was a free revving peach and the 1.3 knocked spots of 2.0 Litre versions of anything else.
IN 1963 my original Fiat 500, driving to Liverpool from Manchester, the ‘heater” that actually bled hot(?) air from the engine air-cooling, had insufficient ‘oomph” to demist the windscreen AND warm my feet. So, I drove home with some clear vision and BL**dy cold feet!
We have made a lot of progress….and then somebody thought battery cars were a good idea so we went backwards. My 2009 diesel Ford C Max warms up very quickly and is soon pumping out heat.
Too bad when, like 45% of the nation, I’m forced to drive an EV that I can’t charge overnight in winter because I have no off street parking.
Bit awkward if the supplier needs to drain the BEV battery to keep the lights on in a ‘Dunkelflaute’.
At least the supplier would be disappointed, because the battery couldn’t cough up much power. If it can’t run the EV, it can’t run the grid. Must remember to check on assumptions the next time an EMBER pretends that V2G will solve the intermittency problem.
Just returned today from a midweek stay at Sherwood Forest Centerparcs with the wife and I taking our son, daughter in law and grandson for a low price break.
We ate out Monday and Tuesday nights but with the prediction of minus 7 on Wednesday didn’t fancy the long even colder walk back in the dark. So we ordered an Indian takeaway delivered to the Villa. Only a little late the deliverer turned up looking so half frozen to death I invited her in to warm up. Transpired she had delivered by push bike instead of the usual EV buggy normally used. Why? Because all the EV Carts were either conking out in the cold after a very short distance or not even starting at all due to the cold.
French love British Net Zero
French ‘rubbing their hands’ as Britain forced to import £1.5bn of electricity
UK buys a record amount of power from Europe as wind and solar fall short
Britain imported a record amount of electricity from Europe last year as solar and wind farms struggled to generate sufficient energy in the wake of coal and nuclear power plant closures.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/19/uk-electricity-imports-hit-record-wind-and-solar-power/
The BBC
Renewable energy: Wind power ‘saved Northern Ireland £243m last year’
Locally generated wind power meant Northern Ireland saved £243m in 2023.
The figures are from Wind Energy Ireland’s annual report and a report by energy specialists Baringa
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68030580
Is that true – highly doubtful since we know renewable energy is expensive – or did you hear it on the BBC.
Our trade last year with France included some 160GWh of counterflow on Eleclink and IFA1, with one exporting while the other imported, sending electricity round in circles, and adding 160GWh to exports and imports. These events were frequent – almost daily, and often lasted up to several hours. The worst case saw the entire 1GW capacity of Eleclink being used in counterflow, though usually such flows were 500MW or less.
Trade with France valued at hourly day ahead prices was
GWh Eleclink IFA1 IFA2 France
Import 4,648 7,159 3,803 15,610
Export -813 -1,265 -675 -2,753
Net Import 3,835 5,894 3,128 12,857
Import £95.07 £96.78 £98.37 £96.66
Export £93.53 £83.98 £87.46 £87.65
Utilisation 62.3% 48.1% 51.1% 52.4%
The other Continental links:
GWh BritNed NEMO NSL Viking
Import 4,262 3,983 8,942 64
Export -1,587 -1,003 -414 -12
Net Import 2,675 2,981 8,529 52
Import £104.09 £99.15 £99.27 £68.07
Export £79.19 £79.63 £37.33 £70.45
Utilisation 66.8% 56.9% 76.3% 0.6%
Ireland
GWh E-W Moyle Ireland
Import 239 422 661
Export -1,915 -2,454 -4,369
Net Import -1,676 -2,032 -3,708
Import £107.72 £103.45 £105.00
Export £86.80 £91.21 £89.28
Utilisation 49.2% 65.7% 57.4%
Overall
GWh Total GB
Import 33,522
Export -10,137
Net Import 23,385 =4,984MW on average
Import £98.70
Export £84.16
Utilisation 59.3%
Does anyone know if there is there a rational technical reason for nearly neighbouring interconnectors which I believe are connected to near by parts of the French electricity grid in Hauts-de-France being used to send electricity round in circles – who makes money out of this?
Interconnectors make money out of being used. Whilst they will net off trades made in opposite directions over time because DC power can only ever flow one way at a time, they have no incentive to net off against adjoining links. It is why the EU enforced its Market Coupling regime that is supposedly designed to prevent perverse flows within the EU. We ceased to have access to that post Brexit, and the UK consumer gets to pay for the inefficiency.
There could be quite a few reasons why the transactions don’t cancel each other Zed.
Interconnector flows will (mostly I assume) be nominated to satisfy some combination of forward and prompt trades. Trading can be quite a complicated affair in practice, and doesn’t necessarily meet expectations of theoretical perfect clearing. Some possible reasons:
Information sharing isn’t necessarily perfect, and the holders of the two trades may not have spotted an opportunity to cancel each other.
Traders will not necessarily transact for trivial value There may be insufficient value in the price gap between any open offers or bids which could have cancelled these flows.
Trading houses will have lists of approved counter parties who have passed internal governance tests (entering into bilateral “trading master agreements”). The holders of the interconnector flows might not have such an agreement to transact.
We don’t know where trading participants stand against their trading credit limits. If credit is getting close a limit, traders could be more choosy about who they trade with and the net value from any trade.
The transactions may lack some particular characteristic for “custody” purpose, so there may be no opportunity to trade. For example, if a trade is associated with passing electricity associated with a particular asset from the seller to buyer, the buyer may be unwilling to re-sell the power and lose whatever “custody benefit” it sees from the transaction.
“drivers activating features like heating.” So “heating” is now a “feature”
What next…the “feature” of windscreen wipers so you don’t have to keep stopping and getting the squeegee out?
My first Mini, starter button on the floor, sliding windows and cord door pulls had what Austin-Mirris called a heater. One thing it wasn’t was a heater.
Synchromesh on first gear was even a “Feature” on Mk1 Minis. You either came to a dead stop before trying to engage it, or taught yourself how to double-declutch (like I did).
Dave Ward
I’d forgotten that feature
What you are talking about Glen is the auxiliary radiator which I used to use all summer to avoid overheating. I had to have the windows open to let out the heat. My first car – loved it.
Mine was just before they “insulated” the distributor having discovered that spray from heavy rain could short the connections. Or something similar; I’m no electrician.
So there am I, in pissing rain and dark on the main Barnsley to Sheffield road drying out this piece of kit with a cloth kept for the purpose.
6pm on March 11th 1965 on my way to be introduced to my six-hour old daughter! Happy days.
Fold down the windscreen and don goggles or put on a helmet perhaps.
The heat from an internal combustion engine, had the by-product of warming the car and its occupants or cooling it with air-con.
Now we have allegedly, ‘vehicles’ that have their occupants, shivering, because they only have two choices, reaching their destinations, in comfort or freezing their tits off, with the possibility that they are stranded?
The absurdity that CO2 that was once 500x higher than it currently is, dominates irrational thought!
The heat from the engine does not provide air-con. A pump drives a refrigeration system to provide cooling.
‘Edmund King, President of the AA, has issued guidance to electric vehicle (EV) owners, emphasising the importance of preheating their cars and charging overnight.’
Bloviating bastard. Who is his audience? ‘Issued guidance?’
EV owners better already know what they need to do.
This knob was talking rubbish on GB News yesterday but Martin Daubney was not impressed with his claims that once you try a battery car you are. Reality says something different as sales stall other than taxpayer subsidised business sales and they are heading for disaster as the lease companies are starting to see used battery car values drop.
It’s a bit rich Edmund King saying that EV car problems in cold weather “are exacerbated by drivers putting on the heater”. What does he expect them to do – take along a hot water bottle?
I run my Citroen Picasso diesel while it stands outside my garage for a few minutes this weather
That’s OK off the public road, but in Brighton they can now fine engine idlers.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24027878.brighton-hove-city-councils-idling-engine-fine-comes-place/
– – –
It seems EV charging stations need to be indoors and heated in winter.
Interesting. I was forced to make an illegal Traffic Order when working at the City of London to make idling enforceable by a Penalty Charge Notice. Unfortunately for the idiots I worked for the DfT refused to sanction a traffic sign thus rendering the Traffic Order unenforceable. The legislation that stood then, and most likely still does, requires drivers be asked to turn off their engines and only then can they be fined £20. That fine level may have been increased but the City was not interested asking for it to be reviewed and went their own illegal way. I suspect Brighton has done the same. The sign shown in the Argus article is not a legal traffic sign.
Yep, preheat, sounds sensible.
Edmund King, President of the AA, should warn drivers they should NOT own, lease, or rent and EV.
I think this winter will do more to slow the sale of EVs than any of the other problems they have.
Auto manufactures are in financial (they have dug a deep hole) trouble and investors will lose “biggly.”
Sounds like he loves his, he is all for them. But then he has a driveway/ garage to charge.
EV’s, in particular Teslas, have been the best selling cars in Norway for about 5 years now.
How many are left outside in freezing conditions overnight?
How many are the only car in that household?
What share of those households are in Oslo?
The top five countries with the highest share of EV sales in 2022 were Norway (80%), Iceland (41%), Sweden (32%), Netherlands (24%) and China (22%).
https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
The Norwegian EV incentives:
No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
«Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses
98% of Norway’s electricity is produced from renewable sources.
Norway’s electricity production is dominated by hydro power. It consumption can vary, depending on the state of its reservoirs and the sources of surplus power on interconnectors. At times it makes use of significant amounts of Swedish nuclear power.
Who cares where they get their electricity from as it has no relevance to buying a battery car – wads of taxpayers cash does.
“This is attributed to the diminished efficiency of the lithium-ion battery, exacerbated by drivers activating features like heating.”
“Diminished efficiency” when cold, is not limited to Li-ion batteries, but apply to all other kind of batteries too, including lead types.
Perhaps EVs could have an interior heater, which could burn diesel? Or possibly domestic heating oil?
Ambulances in the UK used to have – not sure if still so – a paraffin heater underneath to heat the patient area.
Well, then it begins to make sense. While at it, why not replace the motors with a proper engine and actually become more environment friendly?
“…exacerbated by drivers activating features like heating…”
How very dare they turn on the heater in cold weather! Clearly the whole problem is the idiot drivers’ fault.
BTW Does anyone else remember the heaters in early Land Rovers? Down by the driver’s left leg there was a sort of round box thing , which was smoking hot all the time, and if you wanted more heat you opened a door on the front of it. Low-Tech or what? But at least it worked in cold weather.
A pair of doors, controlled whether the heat came out into cabin or went up to windscreen. Blower fan inside it
Fiat 500 in the early 60’s – Heating via engine cooling air bled off the engine and directed either up or down. I had a long, cold drive from Manchester to Liverpool alternating between vision through a de-iced windscreen along with freezing feet, or limited vision and warm knees!
Ah! But we were young then!
And VW Beetle heat took forever to start working.
Not to rub it in from across the pond……
I own a 2019 Chrysler Pacifica (a mini-van) as I like to haul things.
At Christmas, I went to Knoxville, TN from Morgantown, WV (ca. 450 miles) on one tank of gas. And through the mountains, especially from Beckley into Virginia. Did the same coming home.
As a bonus, the heater works very well. I set the desired temperature and the air flow. I also have heated seats and steering wheel. In the summer, the AC is fantastic.
“Edmund King said: “EV drivers should consider keeping their cars plugged in overnight and pre-conditioning the car, which in many models can be done via an app from the comfort of your own home.””
He’s preaching to the choir. This is absolutely standard practice for anyone who can charge their EV at home.
Those who can’t charge at home, or who have to charge on a journey, should be made aware of a nasty little “Catch-22” problem in cold weather. As mentioned, cold batteries take much longer to charge so drivers are advised to precondition theirs before stopping at a charger. However, doing so drains the battery much faster, cutting the remaining range.
This (edited) post on an EV thread exemplifies the issue:
“When I got home I had somehow lost 59 miles of range despite the trip only showing 34 miles since I left. I’ll confess I had put Shell in the sat nav which pre warmed the battery.
I did make it to Shell another time, but it would only supply 65KW initially, this was because the battery was too cold (despite having driven around for 20 minutes prior to charging) as it wasn’t really planned I just saw a spare charger on my way passing so I got 40% charge in 35 minutes.
In this weather the battery remains cold unless you”re charging or absolutely booting it and as such you need to put into the sat nav the fast charger you’re aiming for and then it will use the remaining battery to pre warm the battery to 31 degrees for fast charging, not exactly ideal if you’re trying to eek out range to make it to a particular charger.
Even if you get to a charger, if the battery is not ready you won’t be getting it and if you’ve warmed your battery and the charger is occupied you may have just wasted precious miles to the next charger.”
To be fair, battery cars are not much better in summer as the air-con drains the battery as well but at least the warmth helps with charging the battery.
One of the original services provided by the AA (when the rode on motor bike/side car) was to warn members where a speed trap was. And in those days they would salute you if there wasn’t a speed trap.