Let Them Eat Cake, Say BBC
By Paul Homewood
Why does the BBC hate the British public so much?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58925049
This is a question that faces most ordinary people in Britain, even if the £20,000 figure is probably exaggerated, Hard working families simply cannot afford the prices charged for EVs.
But according to the BBC, that is not a problem. You simply need to settle for less, and buy one for £20000 instead.
Of course, all you will get for that price is a tiny little box, that will be totally unsuitable for most people:
Alternatively you can opt for a second hand car, with a battery that will probably not last very much longer, and that will have very little resale value when you need to trade in.
Hopes that prices may fall in future years are no more than pie in the sky. Given the fact that raw materials make up to 70% of the cost of a battery, the opposite is more likely. In any event, what the price may be in ten or twenty years time does not help anybody in the meantime.
This response from the BBC is an insult to ordinary people.
Comments are closed.
NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT 
Do we have any reliable data on the sort of mileage that you can expect to get out of an electric car before it dies? Modern ICE cars tend to last for 100,000 miles at the very least nowadays and some have clocked up many more. My previous car expired at around 130k with a knackered gearbox. Even then, it could have been repaired, it just wasn’t worth the cost. If electric cars do expire due to the fact that replacing the battery isn’t cost effective, that increases the true cost, both to the consumer and the environment.
My old Scalextric went round the room twice and then stopped. It’s probably about the same.
😂
I understand the problem is the battery, which if you use rapid charging lasts 100k miles or fewer. Ive heard it can be far fewer. You then need to spend £10k perhaps on a new battery, which is not going to be economic for many second-hand cars.
My land-rover Defender 110 300tdi I used to own had 130,000 miles on the clock when I bought. Never having bought such a high mileage vehicle before I asked an experienced friend who had many land-rover for years about it.
His advice was I might new piston rings at 250,000 miles but probably wouldn’t need a rebore until around 500,000 miles.
The rest of the vehicle is basically bolt together meccano. The only other failure point being gearboxes.
A Lithium Ion battery can do about 1000 charge cycles before capacity starts to be significantly impacted. Cars with larger batteries (i.e. Teslas!) can therefore do more miles before the battery is spent (around 300k, provided you only charge when it’s empty. High rate charge cycles, especially when the battery is hot (motorway services anyone?) are more detrimental than slow charge cycles. Active battery thermal management also helps – again Tesla are good here, but some others (notably the Leaf which has no battery cooling) are poor – and you will find that they won’t fast charge after a fast run, which is a problem in the 40kWh units. Connecting your car to the grid and using it as storage when you are not using it is a bad idea too….
There’s going to be an interesting time in 2-3 years – there have been a lot of e-cars bought recently, presumably mostly business on lease taking advantage of the generous tax breaks – what is going to happen when these come onto the used market? Is anyone (private buyers….) going to want them?
The market is likely to place a very low residual value on them. But of course, the buyer is only going to get a very short life out them anyway, so the depreciation is likely to be very high. Paying say even £5,000 for a car that only lasts a couple of years will be an eyewatering experience for those expecting at least 5-6 years out of it, even if the maintenance bills escalate a bit at that age. Vehicle range is likely to be severely compromised too, especially in cold weather.
I remember a (woman) in the laboratory selling her Mercedes diesel in 1971 with 810,000 Km. on the dial (yes, they built them in 1948 with 6 figures in the odometer).
She got quite a good price too. It had run up that great mileage when owned (successively) by 2 salesmen making country runs (200 Km+ in a trip).
I was able to run my ICE Vauxhall Cavaliers up to over 200,000 miles with regular servicing and oil changes.
In the end after driving up many farm tracks, it was the bodywork that tended to give out, much like us humans.
I would have thought a modern diesel could last for many miles, be very efficient, and clean, and at the end of its life be easy to recycle compared with the batteries in an electric one. Also, who in their right mind would want a pure electric car ? Surely most people would opt for a hybrid rather than risk getting stuck somewhere miles from home ? Maybe carry a generator in the boot. Most people, I suspect would rather change their lifestyles according to their own common sense, and their own sense of responsibility, rather than being told what to do by a government for whom they have a declining respect.
The unbiased, honest (BBC, unbiased? Honest?) answer to the question should have been based on the particular user’s current quality of transport. For instance, I drive a Q3 which was about £30k when bought. So to get an equivalent level of appointment in an EV the ones I have looked at start around the late £50k and go on to high 60s+. Then I would need to pay for and have installed a home charger system. Then I’d need to be ready for the time when the government decides I should really start adding to the revenue which they lost when I switched from taxed petrol to hardly taxed electricity. And then, when I’ve done all the sums and decided to bite the lithium bullet I’d probably find the price for batteries has shot up courtesy of the Chinese.
Boris: you really are a bozo.
And not forgetting the rising price of electricity of course.
And the power cuts that are inevitable with the current direction of travel….
And now this…
Johnson Matthey exits UK battery business in blow to Net Zero
Financial Times, 11 November 2021
Johnson Matthey plans to stop manufacturing chemicals for batteries, dealing a blow to Britain’s ambitions to develop a homegrown champion in the race to power electric cars.
The 204-year-old UK company announced its decision to exit the key business on Thursday, as it warned that supply chain disruptions would hit profits and said its chief executive would step down next year.
The group had been betting big on developing a jet-black substance called eLNO, made from nickel, cobalt and lithium and used in cathodes, the most expensive part of an electric car’s battery.
The plan to sell this part of the business will end the company’s ambitions to transform itself into a key supplier for electric cars. The sector is predominantly led by Chinese producers such as CATL, with Europe’s Umicore and BASF remaining as the large western competitors.
Johnson Matthey said the potential returns from its capital-intensive battery materials unit would be inadequate as the market became commoditised, stripping away its ability to offer a unique product.
—
As the Chinese own 50% of the world’s lithium supplies, and gunning for more, it was sort of inevitable. If we continue down this road, we will be entirely dependent on the Chinese, which is of course what the Chinese want.
Our governments are utter and blind fools!!
Brilliant Review !
Furthermore . . . Electric Vehicles Burn at least 15% more CO2 than Electric cars for EVERY kilometer driven !
See My analysis above . . .
I have arranged to drive my family from SE England to Scotland in February to a nice Airbnb place we have rented. That will be four car occupants, a roof box full of necessaries and at least on dog in the boot (It’s OK it’s an SUV)
Sorry, I managed to post before finishing.
I have a diesel VW Tiguan that will cruise all day long at 90mph if I so desire and get us there without refuelling. It was worth about £30K new when I took out a lease on it 2 years ago.
If anyone imagines I’m going to change that for a smaller EV which at motorway speeds will be lucky to get 100 miles per charge, in the depths of winter, they have another think coming.
Exactly. Spending the same amount but getting something worse is you getting poorer. There is no difference between that znd getting a pay cut.
But the BBC has no understanding of that sort of basic economics.
Every substitute for fossil fuels is dud, the more so with our UK’ s negligible greenhouse gases output.
I have a 2003 Toyota Yaris T Sport that has 240,000 miles on it. I 1.5l NA engine gives it good performance for a super mini. I bought it new for £12k. It has had two new headlight covers (perished) and an alternator. Not even a clutch yet. I do service it regularly including gear oil etc. I do not believe an electric car could done the winters, the motorway and rural use cycle, commutes and holidays this car has done. My high performance 2004 BMW M3 was immaculate on 113,000 miles when I (stupidly) sold it 2 years ago. It was fun too!!! I took it all over Europe (thousand of miles a week) when we were allowed to do such things. I bought a Honda Civic Type R new in 2018 and expect to never sell that. EVs are dull, risky and crap.
I’ve just had a trip to Manchester (100 miles one way) and surmise there must be millions of vehicles on the UK road network at any one time during the day. Now they will need recharging if all electric, so the requirement is for millions of parking spaces with charging points, points to a grid meltdown every day.
Lunacy.
I’m thinking of changing my moniker to 0.0000132 as thats the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere the UK contributes.
Madness is all around us.
Never mind the cost or the reliability. How can they manufacture these all-electric vehicles without using the same fossil fuels for transportation as are used for everything else?
As I have said before, I own a LandRover Discovery 4 3.0 V6 with which I tow an Airstream 684 trailer/caravan weighing 2.65 tons and which has a nose weight somewhere in the region of 110 – 130 kg. The Disco4 has a trailer capacity of 3.5 tons and, with the tow bar I have fitted, a nose weight capacity of 250 kg. Even towing at only 20 mpg average I can still manage over 300 miles with plenty of margin for finding a refuelling location and I can carry an additional 80 mile reserve (at 20 mpg) in a 20 litre steel jerrycan in the boot. With the 4×4 system I can be assured of being able to tow on and off soft surfaces such as grass fields etc without any chance of getting stuck.
Does the BBC have any advice for me? Which EV should I pick to replace my Discovery 4?
Or shall I do what I suspect a lot of people are going to do – buy a petrol or diesel replacement in 2029 before the ban comes in and simply hang onto it?
Not an issue. Caravanning will be banned under the new Green Reich as EVs aren’t designed for towing. Problem solved!
But…but…but…what about motorhomes then?
By all means buy a motorhome – or own a caravan – just make sure you live somewhere nice as you won’t be able to go anywhere with them.
It may well be that there won’t be anywhere outside of towns and cities – make that large towns – to visit as with travel restricted, there will be no visitors and places will go bust. Another example of green crap killing jobs.
Pistonheads has a dedicated section for EVs and Alternative Fuels. There are many threads on all aspects of the EV world. It’s interesting to read the comments based on actual experience.
This one shows a wide variety of EV experiences and views:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1958749
I see Beeb touting economies of scale – we should forgive them for they know not what they do. Modern Battery plants are fully automated so efficiency is already maxed out. With the rise and demand for rare earths and dominance of China, which has cornered the market, the chances of drop in battery prices is zero. An electric car will have zero value, and maybe a liability cost for disposal much like electronics to day. when scrapped. If disposal costs are front ended EV’s will be even more expensive. Then of course the Government will have to introduce a mileage tax – its only a matter of time. The costs of charging stations will be born by taxpayers. As the Grid will not be able to cope with all the EV’s charging, Heat Pumps and electric heating and etc., billions will be needed to rebuild the Grid and local distribution networks. With the new Green Grid depending on renewables and lack of dispatchable energy charging will be constrained by rationing of power during high load conditions.
Yes the claims about economies of scale are absurd – or just lies. EVs use many of the same components as existing cars and are all built in new, highly automated factories. Most are made by existing large manufacturers with global marketing, distribution, servicing etc. already in place.
There is no scope for any significant reduction in cost die to scale.
EVs are not going to get cheaper as China has cornered 50% of the world’s lithium supplies and if after more.
EV’s . . . Some Facts . . .
CO2 Added to the Environment . . . Electric Car Versus Gasoline Car
A Comparison of Two equal sized Cars
Tesla Model ‘S’ versus Toyota Camry
Schneider-Electric
Welcome to the Schneider Electric Blog
Jacques Schonek
Transmission Losses vs Distribution Losses on the Transmission network, the percentage of network losses is lower than on the distribution network. Citizens Advice suggests that about 1.7% of the electricity transferred over the transmission network is lost, and a further 5-8% is lost over the distribution networks https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/144711/download
Electricity has to be transmitted from large power plants to the consumers via extensive networks. The transmission over long distances creates power losses. The major part of the energy losses comes from Joule effect in transformers and power lines. The energy is lost as heat in the conductors.
Considering the main parts of a typical Transmission & Distribution network, here are the average values of power losses at the different steps.
· 1-2% – Step-up transformer from generator to Transmission line
· 2-4% – Transmission line
· 1-2% – Step-down transformer from Transmission line to Distribution network
· 4-6% – Distribution network transformers and cables
The overall losses between the power plant and consumers are then in the range between 8 and 15%.
This must not be mixed up with the efficiency of power plants like nuclear, coal-fired or natural gas turbine. These technologies are based on a thermodynamic cycle, which efficiency is in the order of 35%. This means that the combustion of nuclear, coal, or Gas, will produce heat, which will be converted into mechanical energy and then into electricity. https://blog.se.com/energy-management-energy-efficiency/2013/03/25/how-big-are-power-line-losses/
35% is the average efficiency of Gasoline Engines also.
I will use an ‘average’ of 12 % for my calculations.
Green Car Reports – Why it takes more Energy than your Battery holds
The real reason for the discrepancy is that you lose some energy to Heat to the onboard charging. According to Kia, for instance, it’s typical for the onboard charger to lose 14 percent or more of the energy input on the way to charging the cells in the battery pack. Factor in charger inaccuracies (Kia notes that 3 to 5 percent isn’t unusual) and you could end up ‘officially’ putting in well over 15 percent more energy than the battery’s capacity while restoring the charge to 100 percent.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098248_charging-an-electric-car-why-it-takes-more-energy-than-your-battery-holds
Green car congress 05 September 2018
Unlike conventionally fueled vehicles, electric vehicles experience a loss of energy during “refueling,” with an energy loss of about 16% from the wall power to the battery during charging. https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180905fotw.html#:~:text=Unlike%20conventionally%20fueled%20vehicles%2C%20electric,to%20the%20battery%20during%20charging.
Based on the KIA commentary I will use 16% as my ‘average’.
Energy Information Administration – USA
How much carbon dioxide is produced per kilowatt-hour of U.S. electricity generation?
In 2019, total U.S. electricity generation by the electric power industry of 4.13 trillion kilowatt-hours (kWh) from all energy sources resulted in the emission of 1.72 billion metric tons—1.90 billion short tons—of carbon dioxide (CO2). This equaled about 0.92 pounds of CO2 emissions per kWh. US Energy information. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11
I will Use 0.92 lbs. per KWH
Tesla Model ‘S’
To cover 15,243 miles, I used 5,074 kWh of electricity, for an average of 333 watt-hours per mile.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090685_life-with-tesla-model-s-one-year-and-15000-miles-later
This consumption reading is based on the ‘power consumption odometer’ in the car. NOT from the household meter.
0.92 lbs. CO2 X 12 % line loss = .11 lbs. CO2
0.92 lbs. CO2 + .11 lbs. CO2 = 1.03 lbs. CO2 up to charging station
1.03 lbs. CO2 X 16 % charging loss = 16 lbs. CO2
1.03 lbs. CO2 + .16 lbs. CO2 = 1.19 lbs. CO2 per KWH for fully charged battery
Tesla Model ‘S’ with Electric Engine
1.19 lbs. per KWH X .333 kwh per mile = 0.39 lbs. CO2 per mile
Toyota Camry with Gasoline Engine
Exprhttps://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/camry/mpgess
98 grams per km. or 0.216 lbs. per km X 1.6 km to miles = 0.34 lbs. CO2 per mile
0.39 lbs. CO2 X 15 % =.05 lbs. CO2 per mile
Therefore . . . Tesla model ‘S’ burns 15 % more CO2 than the Gas Powered Toyota Camry, per Mile driven . . .
Tesla’s Sale of Environmental Credits Helps Drive Profitability
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/23/teslas-sale-of-environmental-credits-help-drive-to-profitability.html
Tesla revenue hit $6.04 billion during the second quarter of 2020, with about 7% of that, or $428 million, coming from sales of regulatory credits.
CFO Zach Kirkhorn said during the company’s earnings call Wednesday that Tesla expects revenue from sales of regulatory credits to double in 2020 versus the prior year but to decline over time.
Without zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) and other regulatory credits, Tesla would not have been able to report a four consecutive quarters of GAAP profitability, a milestone it reported Wednesday that meets the qualifications for Tesla to join the S&P 500.
Tesla Made More Money Selling Credits and Bitcoin Than Cars
Tesla’s bitcoin bet paid off, while Model S and Model X production came to a halt in the first quarter of 2021.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36266393/tesla-made-more-money-selling-credits-and-bitcoin-than-cars/
Emissions credits accounted for $518 million in revenue in a quarter that saw a pretax income of $533 million and a net income of $438 million on a GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) basis. Needless to say, the credits account for almost the entirety of Tesla’s profit for this quarter—in fact, sales of emissions credits have been a major source of revenue for Tesla for quite some time, contributing to hundreds of millions in income for the past few quarters. The automaker accumulates regulatory credits because it produces only EVs and sells them for a profit to other automakers that are short of these credits.
This may be the Biggest Environmental Scandal in History
In the UK coal/biomass generation was 8.9% of total demand last year on average and gas was 40.1%.
Assuming the rest of generation produces no emissions
2.23 lbs/kWh * 0.089 + 0.91 lbs/kWh * 0.401 = 0.56 lbs/kWh
With transmission and charging losses: 0.56 / 0.88 / 0.84 = 0.76 lbs/kWh
Or 0.76 * 0.333 = 0.25 lbs/mile in a Tesla S, 26% lower than Toyota Camry
And in a hydro/nuclear power grid it would by 100% lower
Sobaken: your calc misses a key point.
A new EV brings an incremental demand which would not arise if an ICE car was bought.
Incremental demand on our grid is virtually certain to be met by gas or even coal because renewables are always fully-allocated since they are prioritised onto the grid (after nuclear).
I once upset a Tesla owner at a motor gathering by remarking that it was good to see coal making a comeback!
So basically, localized small nuclear stations could be a win-win as the shorter distances would mean lower losses. Whilst the Rolls Royce small modular rector development deserves to be encouraged, I would also suggest that further Thorium/LFTR research is also conducted, either through direct funding or R&D tax breaks.
Just made a 600 mile round trip via UK motorway system. Was surprised to see extremely low number of EVs during the entire trip. If Tesla has largest EV market share there were very few to be seen on M5/M6. Seems like EV market is for business users minimising their tax liability who potter around the local area feeling green and superior or their EV is a second car with minimal wekly mileage and is recharged from an offroad household drive.
My suspicion is government are using EV’s as a crafty way of removing millions of drivers off the roads.
Price is the obvious obstruction, with insufficient charging points being the next big issue.
Government will be able to restrict access as required, so expect mileage restrictions and so on. By 2030 it’ll all be done remotely just as smart meters will be controlled by energy companies, which given they’ll be doing government bidding, really means the government.
This all makes sense especially when we consider self-charging hybrids would do away with all urgent national charging infrastructure and avoid any need to beef up the national grid, which can’t be done in time. SCH wouldn’t be completely NZ but would be a big step forward with value all over the place.
There must be a reason government are refusing this obvious solution…
Smart ForTwo BEV costs about £20k – range 81 miles when new! Two seats and very little luggage space. Completely unsuitable for a family. No mention of the mining required to produce a BEV or the battery disposal problem. No mention of where this mining is undertaken or the health hazards involved? And of course no mention of the total carbon dioxide emitted to produce a BEV? Play things for the wealthy – makes them feel virtuous. For the rest of us – a total non-starter.
Real world estimates of the mpg expected from petrol cars are wildly optimistic.
Similarly, what are the real world distances of a 250 mille EV on a cold day, with 4 people and luggage, heating on, headlights, radio and windscreen wipers on?
The demand for electricity expected to double in the next 20 years due to Heating, cooking and EV;’s.
.Fossil fuel being phased out in favour of weather dependent renewables. What could possibly go wrong?.
All of them at once in a power cut, on top of the probabilities of individual failures…
on the same basis close to end of lunchtime news they had one of their “fact checkers” on discussing air source heat pumps. Apparently as cheap as gas central heating. No mention of other costs .. Then for an objective viewpoint he interviewed Caroline Lucas. Insulate insulate, again no mention of costs . Report needs fact checking by an impartial fact checker
If the price differential is going to fall to zero within five years, why buy an EV now?
And the second-hand value of any EV will fall through the floor if that happens.
These people really refuse to understand that there are actual problems with their fantasies.
EV’s burn 15% more CO2 than equal sized Gasoline cars . . . see above . . .
Tesla’s’ versus Camry . . .
Science is complex . . .
Propaganda Is easy . . . especially when it suits your pathetic views . . .
Boring. Will somebody please post something original? We all know the question but what is the answr?
The answer is that the tesla ‘s’ produces 15% more CO2 than the Toyota Camry . . .
See my entry above . . .
How many ‘hardworking families’ buy new cars now? To some extent the price of a new EV isn’t the issue, it’s the availability and useful life of secondhand ones that will matter. Then the question of battery degradation is probably the biggest issue, after price.
I think i’ve mentioned this before but when I enquired about having an EV charger installed in my rural cottage UK power networks informed me that as my supply was rather old it didnt meet the latest requirements for a charger so that would be £12’500 thank you.
That was pretty much the end of the matter.
You will be able to pick up a second hand electric car for next to nothing, but then again, it may only work for a few weeks.
LOL @ this lightweight BBC report, which again completely misinforms the public on the main issues surrounding forced EV ownership.
Let’s be clear, the problem everyone will face will not be purchasing an EV. The problem will be how to charge the vehicle. There is currently insufficient infrastructure in place. Sure, there will be many more charge points in a few years from today, however, demand for available charging stations will always outstrip the supply. One reason is that there will be insufficient power at peak times to feed the growing ravenous network and therefore many charge points, even if available, will not be online.
The last time I looked, the Government was closing down dependable gas and coal power stations here in the UK and exposing everyone to power outages during peak times, and this is before the expected avalanche of new EV’s. In a Financial Times report, it was predicted that the Government will need to build six new nuclear power stations to cope with the extra demand. This doesn’t simply happen overnight and therefore the power supply will always struggle to play catch-up with demand.
A key to what I fear is in store is that EV’s cannot be pushed off the road network when they run out of power because they remain constantly in gear. Therefore, until a recovery vehicle can get to the scene and lift the vehicle out of the road, then the road or particular lane will remain blocked. Envisage that scenario a hundred times a day around London alone!
I predict that the road network will become regularly gridlocked as this scenario becomes commonplace and the costs to businesses and transport will be immense.
Then the real game will come into play and the reason why I think there has been little public debate aloud about swapping to EV’s. The gridlock issues will be used by environmentalists to force drivers off the roads altogether to reduce private car ownership.
I fear that this is what is in store for all of us and as usual, the Government and Media are misinforming the public by refusing to debate these tough issues now. The truth is that those in power and the media don’t want the discussion because it suits their agenda and the decision has already been made.
You will walk and you will cycle and you will use public transport or you will be financially punished.
….And you will own nothing and you will be happy!
“Hard working families …”: oh, Mr Homewood! Bugger hard working families, what about the majority of dossers?