Is a BAN on Home Batteries in Lofts Coming?
By Paul Homewood
This video is definitely worth a watch.
It is by an expert on solar and battery storage, I gather, who certainly has no axe to grind:
The gist is that official electrical installation guidance is changing in the UK, to strongly advise against the installation of batteries in the likes of lofts, cupboards and even garages.
Maybe others can comment on the ramifications of these guidelines form a legal point of view.
But it is not difficult to see an insurance company in future refusing to offer home insurance where these guidelines are not followed.
Worse still, what will happen when a house burns down thanks to a poorly sited battery, and the insurer refuses to cover it?
Given that even garages may not provide adequate ventilation, will batteries have to be installed outside the house? (In which case, what happens when it rains!)
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NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT 
There are two shoes in this discussion.
Shoe #1 is banning installation of batteries indoors, unless under defined special conditions.
Shoe #2 will be charging and/or use of nominated lithium-ion batteries indoors. Maybe even storage or parking of them (cars, skateboards, cycles) except under defined conditions.
There are two shoes in this discussion.
Shoe #1 is banning installation of batteries indoors, unless under defined special conditions.
Shoe #2 will be charging and/or use of nominated lithium-ion batteries indoors. Maybe even storage or parking of them (cars, skateboards, cycles) except under defined conditions.
“what happens when it rains“
People with large lots could put up a shed as a car-park. On the top. Solar panels. Underneath, firewood for when the grid goes out and/or it gets real cold. Place the shed 30+ yards from anything that will burn. Your multi-use shed becomes an asset. If a person doesn’t have the space to do the above, don’t buy an electric auto, bike, or scooter.
So the driving force here is safety and the question as too how safe are Lithium Ion batteries. We know that even the slightest damage can cause a unstoppable chemical fire, unsure as too how you even slightly damage a battery located in a roof space, but all the chickens are coming home to roost- batteries unsafe, so insurance is being reviewed to ensure that the risk is fully covered by the policy fee- interesting times for the Climate Zealots. Question, if my neighbour has a LI battery for his roof panels in his loft, and we are a semi detached property, where does that leave me- any fire would destroy both properties but I would be the innocent party.
Rain should be manageable, even if adding to installation costs, car batteries are in a more hostile environment. This includes brine and silty water. Would the installation mean keeping the battery several feet above ground level in areas at risk of flooding?
Hmmm, this is all becoming worse than silly: but I can see the sentiment – would one store full Gerricans in the loft: but we store cardboard boxes and other drying-out stuff ( as result of Solar heat on roof and protection from rain) …
As for our workshop, our Air compressor “Should be in a warm – no condensation shed”, just as our spare BATTERIES should be kept away from Chills “toasty warm, (the Battery Rep said ).
Better no go on any Gravy Train journeys: no idea where the Devil Rails will take you.
So when you live in the urban jungle, where do you SAFELY put your battery storage ? Hang it on the wall? Aye the video, referenced, threw up as many other issues too.
My cardboard boxes tend not to self combust.
Avoch mannie, but it’s still a fuel….. just waiting for some bright spark
I even know how Avoch is pronounced having been at university with somebody from Avoch.
You use your EV as a storage battery. What could possibly go wrong with a device that gets shaken every time the EV drives over a pot hole, gets shunted or is not maintained.
Oh, What could possibly go wrong? Avoch mannie, These new Solid state batteries are fine now – but the pothole would probably get bigger and my Trigger Point would get LOWER … ( I’m gonna nae gang thaer …. )
Ach = But?
Ach aye, a ken fit yer sein, mloon, but am nae sae daft, a jist ken fit a thae fowk in Buchan hae tae tak a buit. Its a tae dae wi thae cooshy doos ap ahin thae refters. ken?
Avoch: is that the Scots for the chap in the Chinese take-away: Ahh Foo K
Harry, I see a 3-foot wall over there at the top of the Cliff.
Ha-Ha (Wall)?
Hi Harry! – (methinks you missed the point) the wall, be it 3ft or 5ft, … go take a JUMP ! ( and then you’ll know what I didn’t say ;-) ) but we’re only at the end of keyboards or voice activated and sometimes errors occur. Keep on smiling – that’s all I can do today – such cold andrain, April to be another record breaking month? Change the measuring points and get a totally different result: Its all a GENERATIONAL THING, Idiocy & Climate. NEVER Listen to the Older Wiser generations. and BTW the Herons aren’t hanging around here anymore, the few Pelicans have been blown home on a cold Crest – to the Danube Delta, I’ve since found out. Aye if we were working harder, the wind’s high output of 45 POINT Notalot PERCENT would just remain at the paltry sum of 15GW. All that an d more from Germanski et all across there, yet our climate is still doing extreme things ….. huh, maybe we’ve just gone too far the other way. TIme to burn Coal, the Oil isn’t keeping up here today. Wee lammies needing warmed up and a couple of Spare calfies too.
I have a solar installation with a battery in the garage. I did suggest that (post-installation) that it would make sense not to site the battery where it could be in any danger of a car driving into the garage and colliding with the battery.
I was also flooded recently and water penetrated the (IP rated) battery. Much to my surprise the battery carried on working despite water pouring out when the cover was removed.
Most batteries are designed for outdoor installation and it would make sense to site them externally – just common sense. I was interested to hear from the installer that fire risk is not something that they took into consideration when siting the battery.
Out of interest my battery claims that it does not contain cobalt “making it non-flammable”. I’d be interested if someone who knows more about chemistry than I do would like to comment.
Cobalt-free batteries are still flammable, aiui. It’s the electrolyte that is the main risk whereas cobalt, if used, is a component of the cathode.
Someone more knowledgeable may confirm/correct that?
The obvious answer (especially for those who don’t want a renewable future) is never to have solar panels and a battery storage system anywhere near your home. I certainly wouldn’t have either. The life of the batteries, as well as the risk of fire and/or explosion, is another consideration. Dependent on use, the lifetime can be as short as 3 years.
There was an interesting youtube video of a lecture given by a chemist and academic on the problem of dealing with battery fires in tall buildings. The lecture was given to firemen in this country. He mentioned about plans to use the 13th floor of tall buildings to house the batteries since no one wants an office or apartment on the 13th floor. Apart from the heat and flames he also highlights the fact that huge amounts of gasses and vapours are given off when a battery catches fire. Some very interesting clips on this video.
Thanks oomhead. I had not seen that video before, but I had seen the one of Paul Christensen at a conference in Australia. As he says, education of everybody from the risks of li-ion batteries is key, and yet the HSE does not want to know. The risks from BESS are high (probability times consequence), and yet they are being permitted all across the UK by ignorant planners. Fire and Rescue Services are gradually become more aware.
The loft space in most houses is not “fire proofed”, so the advice is just common sense. The other factor is the re-use of clapped out car batteries for these home systems, it is sold as recycling.
My advice, as a qualified electrical engineer is NOT to allow any Lithium batteries above 1kWh in the home. So phones and laptop OK, Powerwall NOT OK.
Given the extreme sentimentality of British people and their susceptibility to the “availability heuristic,” it will only take “one Grenfell” to completely change their knee-jerk, “batteries are wonderful!” to an hysterical “batteries are wicked!” Technically, a battery in an electric car in your attached garage is a storage battery in your home, is it not?
Just like “Nuclear is wonderful!” to an hysterical “Nuclear is wicked!” ? or perhaps “Windfarms are wonderful!” to an hysterical “NIMBIES are wicked!” and anything that fits in that train of gravy. The Herons & few Pelicans ( which arrived here with that hot Southerly Drafts, recently) , have already long since seen the light and don’t use the Train. Exercise the mind and Go!
Technically, a battery in an electric car in your attached garage is a storage battery in your home, is it not?
Yes, but it’s not an installation as in ‘strongly advise against the installation of batteries’. Insurers could take another view though.
Thanks, my electric outboard batteries are 915Wh, pretty confident about them (Torqeedo) although film from GB America’s Cup preparations shows battery fires after prolonged salt water immersion (multiple capsizes) and they look very like the bigger Torqeedo batteries.
For construction projects in the UK, the CDM regs should be dealing with all these risks. This could include small-scale domestic construction projects.
CDM regs = Construction (Design and Management) Regulations
A fire strategy (or fire safety plan) should also be dealing with these risks at the design stage for many buildings, including commercial premises and large residential premises e.g. blocks of flats. This strategy should be regularly updated after construction is complete and the building is in use.
This issue may be getting close to censorship, as we see in the areas of “climate action” and “covid measures”, inconvenient facts are suppressed when something is deemed to be desirable by The Blob.
For some time now, I have been thinking about a system based on lead/acid batteries, with proven track record of good-as-zero fire risk. Much more space consuming than Lithium, per Kwh, but still eminently feasible. The considerable weight means locating on a strong concrete floor….eg garage. But commercial “portable” units are already available if you search. My thought has been to provide emergency power for lighting and the fridge-freezer plus other low current uses. For us, some solar might be feasible later, although we have restrictions as we’re in a park home.
Isn’t one of the byproducts of (dis?)charging Lead-Acid batteries hydrogen or has modern technology eliminated that issue?
Correct, glen. Ventilation is necessary for for lead-acid batteries. It doesn’t take much to dissipate the hydrogen, but you need something. A closet full of lead-acid batteries is a bad idea.
My ‘battery’ is entirely safe. It’s called the ‘grid’. No space taken up in my house at all.
The joke being your grid is no longer safe.
Since government started “helping.”
That’s exactly what I’ve done – I was fortunate to obtain some ex-equipment sealed lead-acid cells (2v ~ 310ah, which I’ve rearranged into 2 banks of 12volts, 155ah) for the derisory sum of £10 each. That’s effectively scrap value for the two which turned out to be past it, so no money wasted. They are sitting on the garage floor (yes they ARE heavy!) and connected to a 1.5kW inverter, via a suitable fuse & marine style isolating switch. Each bank will keep the essentials running all day – the freezer & fridge will survive overnight, so long as they’ve been run before shutdown in the evening. I already have a selection of regulated battery chargers I can couple together to bring them back up when the mains restores, or via generator if it’s off for long periods….
@ Gamecock – “Sealed” lead-acid batteries don’t produce any hydrogen as long as the correct voltage is maintained. The type I’ve got were installed in racking alongside telecom equipment without any special ventilation. The massive open topped “Wet” cells I remember from my early days at PO Tel were an entirely different matter!
“Sealed” refers to liquid. Not gas.
Nickel iron batteries have an excellent record and many attractive features, unfortunately somewhat expensive.
https://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
Sort of related, I stumbled across a YouTube video the other day by a guy who bought a £120k Porche Tican EV. After discovering how utterly impractical it is to use, he decided that he wants to trade it for a petrol Porche Carrera but the dealer won’t let him part exchange it because they already have a forecourt full of EVs that nobody wants. Car buying services are offering him between 28k and 45k for it so he’s basically stuck with it. I’m pretty sure that I could find myself a very nice diesel SUV for 45k though.
The video from the contributor on the £120,000 Porsche Taycan also unfortunately found himself trapped in the car unable to get out, with the electric windows and doors unable to operate after the supplementary battery went flat. He luckily was in a town with good phone coverage, so called his ex-wife who drove over to let him out. He was starting to get concerned on a hot day. A family on holiday in a remote area stopping for a picnic, maybe with poor phone coverage unable to call for help could die. Apparently Tesla’s have a mechanical handle if the electric doesn’t work, but only on the front doors. I have just written to the Sec of State for Transport asking why it is not a Legal requirement to be able to release oneself using a mechanical handle if the electrics fail.
Good luck finding the handle if the whole system has shut down so you can’t read the manual.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/radio-2s-scott-mills-locked-in-electric-car-for-five-hours-w9pmd3hfg
Five hours in BBC car park in Scott Mills’s case.
I’ve been investigating installing a solar + battery system in my home. There is no way that I would install the battery inside the house or the garage. It will be installed outside. There are plenty of weatherproof enclosures available for this purpose.
I already have my oil boiler installed outside the house, on the rear wall next to the utility room. The enclosure keeps the boiler happy and I have never had any problems.
How about this as another green initiative which hasn’t been thought through and no experts consulted?
Fom MGuy on YouTube
The entire electric battery market whether domestic, commercial or auto’ is just one human casualty calamity away from, well, calamity.
Once a block of apartments does a passable impression of Grenfell or a passenger ferry goes down with multiple victims, everything changes. It won’t even have to be in this country as global media coverage will ensure everyone gets to see. It’s just a matter of time.
Insurance issues and massive public resistance will do for this industry. Then where will government policy be?
My solar batteries are already in my garage. Garage is attached to house on one side and back. Fortunately the roof is vaulted and there is a gap around the up and over door, so I would say the ventilation is good. Nonetheless, I expect I would have to notify of the location on house insurance and maybe location also compromises the safety of our cars that are usually parked in the garage.
Batteries and BESS systems are being pushed upon us despite the evidence of serious danger from them. BESS systems are being erected close to housing developments, but all “up-north” of course. The first one should be in Westminster! The HSE are still sitting on the fence and awaiting government guidance.
Hydrogen is another issue where the real problem of leakage is being ignored, along with all sensible economics, in the gullibles’ fervour for saving the planet.
Not all oop north. Many down here in the South-West
And ‘Garden of England’, BESS turned down (amazingly) at last planning committee over safety fears but just a matter of time before it goes through most likely.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/faversham/news/protest-planned-for-solar-farm-battery-safety-council-meetin-302555/
@ Gamecock April 15, 2024 1:24 pm
Yes, I know that, but unless you’re talking about car style “Enhanced Flooded Batteries”, they will be either 1) “AGM” or 2) “Gel”, which have the liquid absorbed into a glass fibre matting, or gel respectively. This enables 1 & 2 to be mounted in any position except upside down. They still have a venting system to cope with overcharging, but with modern plate chemistry, and appropriate multi-stage voltage regulated chargers, any gassing will normally be minimal. It’s why they are typically housed in or with the equipment they are powering, rather than in dedicated battery rooms, along with the massive cabling that I remember from many moons ago.
Gamecock had a friend at the gym who wore 101st Airborne gear. Having been in the USAF, I quipped, “I would never jump out of a perfectly good plane.” He responded that he had never flown in a perfectly good plane.
Well, in my personal South African case, I wouldn’t HAVE to have a battery in the house if we had a reliable electricity supply! Like so many others, around Johannesburg, we got fed up with 2-4 hour outages most days. So, we got solar panels which (most mornings) charge up batteries, These in turn drive everything electrical except our stove and hot-water geyser. When the sun is high, we can even run our washing machine!